Psychiatric Roots in Greek Mythology

Preston: [00:00:00] Hear me out. Polyphemus the Cyclops has schizoid personality disorder. He doesn't interact with them. He doesn't want to talk to anyone. He just wants to hang out, make cheese, herd his little flock, and go to sleep

And welcome back to How to Be Patient. I hope wherever you are journeying to or journeying from, that is finding you well because today we will be discussing The Odyssey. What an odd thing to see- to say, to see. 

Margaret: This is an episode. Welcome Margaret. Welcome. 

Preston: My co-host. 

Margaret: I have not seen the movie, and so that may serve us well or may not serve us well, but we're really gonna find out, bring different perspectives.

Yeah. 

Preston: But here's the thing, get ready for it to be spoiled. I have- I have 

Margaret: read the book. 

Preston: I have no qualms about spoiling a several thousand-year-old story. And, what do they say to- Did you- have you 

Margaret: read the book? 

Preston: Yeah, I read it in high [00:01:00] school. 

Margaret: Okay. 

Preston: Yeah. I did not reread it. What did, what do they say?

It's the same wine in a new bottle. that's what we're- same wine and new skin ... discussing. 

Margaret: Yeah. 

Preston: Yeah, right. 'Cause I mean, did they have bottles back... Rich people had bottles probably. 

Margaret: They had like- 

Preston: Goblets ... 

Margaret: skins or whatever Something like that It was like a le- Yeah. Anyway. 

Preston: Yeah, who knows? Well, 

Margaret: so- Psychiatry will be involved, we promise.

Preston: It, yeah, absolutely, because mental health is everywhere. I think, I feel like I sound like a little bit of a hippie when I say it. I'm like, "Everything has something to do with mental health." But it, for our purpose, it makes it not that hard to, draw lines back into, to psychiatry. 

Margaret: This is also the first time I've been present for one of these episodes.

'Cause the first two, I know it's slightly different, but the ones in history that you did, I was not present for, 'cause it was during my break. I may have had some thoughts on Joan of Arc that I will leave. But- 

Preston: No, this is, that's good because, I think if left untended, my, I kind of become rambling and I maybe cut a lot of corners.

And I think when I [00:02:00] did the Joan of Arc episode, I was- 

Margaret: Which those episodes are good. I'm just, I'm teasing you ... 

Preston: No, it's, you can have plenty of thoughts on them. I think I, I was in the middle of moving, and I was, like, about to catch a flight, and I was like, "Okay, let's go. Let's, cruise this and, like, get this out."

So as far as, like, your position as the passenger princess in Preston's monologue, you're like my conscience and also- Mm-hmm ... the devil and angel on the shoulder Like, "Turn left. Turn left. Turn left." And then, yeah, and then at some point you could be like the Ghost of Christmas Past- Right, right, right

and just stop the show altogether and be like, "Scrooge, we need to turn around." 

Margaret: I'll be like away mode and be like, "Actually, I'm driving now. You thought you were driving," Yeah. "But I 

Preston: was 

Margaret: secretly in the background." 

Preston: In, Pilots will do this thing where they're like, "I have the aircraft," and they like take over the joystick.

So you could just do that. "Oh, I have the aircraft now." And then I'd have, I'd take my hands up. "You have the aircraft." 

Margaret: when I was younger, we used to play, like, Nintendo 64, and by play, I mean very loosely, but it reminds me of this because my older siblings, who are four, six, and eight years older than me, would play and I was, like, [00:03:00] five, so I couldn't actually play, and I would make the game so slow.

So they gave me a controller that was not plugged in. They'd be like, "You're doing so good, Maggie." That's, the energy if we need it at some point during the episode. So 

Preston: this, is a reference to the movie. I'm not expecting you to get it, but, this- Oh ... is you with the controller.

And then, Love that reference ... Jason, can you- Can you overlay the acoustic sound of the bow being strung for that? Speaking of- 

this is me sucking up to Jason right now. So if you're watching on video, I'm actually wearing Jason's band's T-shirt. 

Margaret: Does that make you a groupie? 

Preston: Yeah, I am a groupie.

I was front row for about- Feel like that's a sexist term but ... like half of it, and then I went and sat down 'cause I was kinda tired. So for those of you who don't know, Jason is in a wonderful band. They- 

Margaret: Jason, plug yourself here. 

Preston: Yeah, Jason, this is your chance to plug. So it's, Show 

Margaret: your Insta

Preston: Emerson An- Emerson [00:04:00] Wolf and The, what is it? Emerson Wolf and the Wishbones, yeah. 

Margaret: What a sick name. 

Preston: So yeah, a fun band actually. they-- Jason plays, like, 80 different instruments. I'm, I was, like, having trouble keeping track of all the ones that he was rotating through throughout the show. 

Margaret: What if you just deleted the rest of the episode and the rest was just him 

Preston: playing?

Jason- Like- Jason's like, "All right, this is, the rest of it's just gonna be my live show." You're 

Margaret: like, "It 

Preston: was pretty 

Margaret: boring what they did." It 

Preston: was so fun when he came to San Antonio. He was playing at the, this bar that was quite literally, like, a half mile from my house. So I came home from call, and I was like, "I will go and support."

And I, like, had my scrubs, so I just bought a, one of their shirts and put it over, and I was like, "No one knows." Yeah, this is perfect. I'm just another groupie now at this point." So thank, thanks for coming to San Antonio, Jason, and thank you for always editing our videos. 

Margaret: Woo. Thank you, Jason. 

Preston: Okay, moving on to today's icebreaker.[00:05:00] 

The question is, what is your favorite Greek or Roman myth or story or character or person? Pretty open-ended. What do you... When you think of Greek mythology, what, do you think is fun? What do you like about it? What do you keep coming back to? I feel 

Margaret: like this is gonna surprise, like, the vibe I give, and it's gonna surprise none of our listeners, which is that I, like, love Circe.

And I love, and I'm a particular book fan of Madeline Miller. Whenever she decides to have another book come out, she wrote an adaptation of Circe and then of, the Song of Achilles, and another one that's, like, a smaller book. But so I love Circe. I like that book a lot. No spoilers. Obviously, she's in the movie, and she's in- Mm-hmm

The Odyssey. different thread, but she's, a witch on her own island, and, like, who doesn't want that? her story's more complex than that. But, I love that book so much. It's a really beautiful book, and I like the figure that came out of that story. and she's a little bit evil, and who doesn't love to be a [00:06:00] little bit evil sometimes as a woman in this world?

Yeah. 

Preston: little bit evil, a lot of it's scary, I think. Maybe. Getting turned into a pig kinda scares me. Yeah, if you don't behave. To the 

Margaret: girls who are listening, you guys get it. 

Preston: So I think there's a lot in the, the film that I think you'll really like, when you watch it. She, at the, the time when she has to turn the, the men, they- they're turned into pigs, right?

She has to turn them back into men. Or sorry, she doesn't have to do anything. She chooses to. And she goes, "Okay, guys, like, time to go back into your disguises, like, back into your costumes. Like, I'm gonna make you men again." And you know, because They were pigs. That was their- Yeah ... their real form. 

Margaret: Her story, her book, the book about her is, gives more kind of backstory and is imaginative compared to, like, the short amount of story that she gets in The Odyssey.

But the book is also just, like, very beautifully written as, [00:07:00] like... Have you read the book Hatchet? 

Preston: Yeah. 

Margaret: Like, in, as a kid, that book about the... Yeah. 

Preston: Yeah, the survival book in the woods? 

Margaret: Yeah. It's kind of like beautiful nature writing in the same way of, like, some- She, like, has to, like, make do. It's not the same story at all, but there's a way in which it's like you get very into the nature of the island and how she creates something, and it's, like, fun to read in a similar way to Hatchet in that it's like, "And here's how I cook food on this, like, island without my..."

It's to survive. and then the ship lands, and it's all sorts of shenanigans. But yeah. But okay, that's mine. What's your favorite? 

Preston: That, 

actually makes a lot of sense as to why you would like that. I f- I feel like it's in line with the, the kinda like the bad art every day, grow 75- 75

you know, Humpty Dumpty had a great fall aesthetic. 

Margaret: what is 

[music]: Humpty 

Margaret: Dumpty? What is that meme 

Preston: there? I don't know. it just comes up. when I picture you making stew, I picture Humpty Dumpty having a great fall because that meme comes up every year, [00:08:00] around September. Oh, 

Margaret: that one. That one.

Yeah. Okay. I had, like, no idea. 

Preston: No, like, like, Humpty Dumpty had a great autumn. Yeah, 

Margaret: that's the one. Oh, I see. I was like, I don't know where the eggs are coming in. 

Preston: Okay. So my, my favorite kind of philosopher person story is Diogenes. 

Margaret: Mm-hmm ... 

Preston: so for those of you who aren't familiar, Diogenes is one of the, one of the first cynics arguably, but he's essentially this guy who decided that he wanted to reject all social norms and conventions, no longer wanted to abide by, like, the rules of society.

Not in a way that he's, like, harming or killing anybody. Like, not antisocial, but... What's another way to say... not antisocial, but unsocial, I guess. Mm-hmm. That's how I would describe it. So- 

Margaret: Does not abide within the expectations. 

Preston: Yeah, you know, the nonconformist, you know, the original one. So he... I actually have a painting of him.

It's a... You can see it right up there. There, there's Di- there's Diogenes right above [00:09:00] my, fireplace, and he just, he lives in a barrel in the middle of town because, you know, jobs are for losers, and who needs shelter when I have this barrel and hay, and I can just lay out in the sun all day? And there's a kind of a famous quip where Alexander the Great hears of this guy, Diogenes, and he's walking to town, and he's like, "Oh, you know," like, "Where's this man, Diogenes?"

And he, like, looks down and sees him, and he's like, "I'm Alexander the Great. Like, nice to meet you." And Diogenes is like, "Can you, like, step a little bit to the left? You're, You block the sun. That would make things, like, a lot better." And everyone's 

[music]: like, "

Preston: Oh, my God," you know? This guy, like, look at him being so petulant with Alexander the Great.

but it's like him taking his power back and, almost, like, poking fun at that, like, power is only where men believe it is. And so if you just refuse to believe, then you can take away someone's power. [00:10:00] The... But that's actually not what I think is, like, the funniest part of Diogenes. It's that he thinks himself so...

or sees himself, i- in a way, like, above people. Like, I'm not burdened by all these social norms like you are. I'm not, you know... I'm not a dog on a leash that's, operating within society and needs to kind of conform to authority. And also, like, the punchline is you live in a barrel in the middle of the street, dude.

I'm like, who's the real winner? 

Margaret: Yeah, like, what is this getting you? 

Preston: Oh, so, so I think it's funny. It's like, it's, just this, the... I think that's why I like it, this irony of, like, being, like, the greatest winner and the greatest loser at the same time. 

is how I see it. It's my interpretation of it.

So I just think he's a funny dude. 

Margaret: Do you consider yourself a cynic?

Preston: A Cynic, a Stoic, I guess, I guess he was a early Stoic, which led into Cynicism. I'm, not actually [00:11:00] familiar with how these, like, the genesis of these philosophies. I used to take pride in calling myself a Cynic, but now I think... I don't know. I think it, it's actually an intellectually lazy stance to take to assume the worst- Yeah

in everything, to assume the worst in people. It takes a lot more energy to be optimistic. So I actively try to push away from being a Cynic. And then also, the other thing too is you have to think about the implications of if your philosophy is correct. 

Margaret: Yeah. 

[music]: So 

Preston: it's like- Yeah, like, okay, 

Margaret: what did that get us?

Again, am I just living in the 

Preston: barrel then? 

Margaret: Yeah. yeah. Oh. Yay, everyone 

Preston: is evil. Yeah. 

Margaret: It's 

Preston: like nihilists when they w- nihilists when it's revealed that they were right all along, like- 

Margaret: And what is the point? 

Preston: You know what I mean? Like, the fuck? 

So I just- 

Margaret: Interesting. 

Preston: Yeah. So, so I don't try to see myself as a Cynic anymore.

I guess I see myself more as an [00:12:00] existentialist that- tries to find positive things. But anyways, yep, Diogenes, he's my guy. He's a silly dude. 

Margaret: He's my guy. 

Preston: He would call himself silly. well, we will take a quick break, and when we come back, we will discuss The Odyssey and kind of play a little game about where the DSM lives in that story.

Margaret: Yeah. You odyssey what Preston has for us next. That's 

Preston: a solid one.

Margaret and I are very excited to tell you about a healthcare news podcast that just came out called Medlines. 

Margaret: It's a quick weekly wrap-up of everything in our field, from breakthrough discoveries and research, to politics and, of course, medical pop culture. 

Preston: I think the best way to conceptualize this podcast is it's like NPR's Up First, but for medicine.

So they're short, to the point, with episodes no longer than 15 minutes. 

Margaret: And it's written and created by an amazing team, some of whom you might recognize: Dr. Glaucomflecken and Lady Glaucomflecken, as well as many people here at the Human Content Podcast [00:13:00] Network. 

Preston: With thanks for their inaugural sponsor, the New England Journal of Medicine.

New episodes of Medlines are out wherever you get your podcasts, with new episodes out every Friday.

And we are back. So, before we kind of go into the mental health aspects of The Odyssey, I think we should just do a quick recap for everyone involved. W- we'll kind of take essentially two minutes, go through the whole story of The Odyssey round robin, and Margaret, I'm gonna have you kick it off because I w- I wanna see what you remember from, when you were 

Margaret: in high school.

okay. So this guy leaves his wife, Penelope, is that his wife? To go- Yeah, Penelope ... on this, like, sea Voyage. I can't remember if there's like... There's like some battle they have to go fight in Troy. Is that right? 

Preston: Yep. Yeah, the- 

Margaret: And they have to go fight- Yeah ... and something, something- Trojan War ... and protect their land, da, And they go out there and they [00:14:00] run into all sorts of creatures and mystical beings and- And 

hooligans 

whatnot And they did- I heard that in the movie they don't have my favorite part, which was the like, who's there? No one part. If you know, you know, right? Yeah. Is it in the movie? 

Preston: It's not in the movie.

Margaret: It's not, yeah. He doesn't- Which honestly- He, Polydectes 

Preston: doesn't talk at all in the movie 

Margaret: and then they come back, and it's many years, and it's an odyssey, and it's a long- Mm-hmm ... like 20-year journey or something. And there's 

Preston: period. Did you review the screenplay before this? That's exactly what happened in the- 

Margaret: No, and I, didn't read what her...

I didn't read the person who's a scholar on it's, review of it either. Although I know you did. 

Preston: I was accused of not reading it, that's for sure. 

Margaret: I didn't see... I just saw you have to make a response video, and I had, I have not seen the movie. I have not read her review. I didn't see your original video, and I was just like, "I'm gonna ask here."

Preston: I was just, presently getting flamed while trying to be a film critic. Yeah. So, that's all exactly right. To furnish a couple more details, there's this [00:15:00] island I- Ithaca. Odysseus is the king of Ithaca. He's married to Penelope, who's his queen. They have a, an infant son named Telemachus, and then basically the Trojans kidnap Helen, who's super beautiful, and, Agam- and what- Who 

Margaret: plays Helen?

Is it Zendaya? 

Preston: No, Zendaya plays- Oh ... Athena. 

Margaret: Oh, 

Preston: nice. I'm blanking on the name of the pers- the act- the actress that plays Helen. So Agamemnon wants... He's like a, the greater king in the area. 

Margaret: Yeah. 

Preston: he wants to go get Helen back, and he like essentially gathers all the other potential suitors to Helen at the time, and then rallies all of Greece to go get Helen, like to go save Helen from Troy.

but some people think that he doesn't actually care that much about Helen and he really just wanted to like get control over the trade routes. You know- like, like we're not actually looking for weapons of mass destruction, we're looking for oil kind of conspiracy. 

Margaret: Kind of vibe. 

Preston: So- 

Margaret: Type show. 

Preston: Yeah.[00:16:00] 

Exactly. So he comes around, lands on Ithaca, says, "You know, Odysseus- There goes the explicit rating also for this 

Margaret: podcast. 

Preston: Yeah. 

Margaret: Type shit. 

Preston: He says, "Odysseus, you have to go to, to fight in the Trojan War with me." And we're gonna, we're actually gonna bring something on that wasn't in the movie, but- This may be the first case of malingering that I've seen in, I guess, psychiatric malingering that I've seen in, ancient texts.

So when first confronted, Odysseus says basically, "Oh, I can't go because I'm insane." And he sets up a, like a plow on the beach and he puts... He, he does a bunch of stuff wrong to just demonstrate how out of it he is. So he has a mule and he has an ox on the plow, so it's kind of like lopsided. I'm guessing it probably went in circles because that's like a pretty stupid thing to do [00:17:00] if you know anything about plowing- 

Margaret: And-

Preston: fields ... 

Margaret: the beach. 

Preston: Yeah, I'm like, I, 'cause I know the second I said that, Margo was like, "This idiot. What, mule and a, mule and an ox? They have different stride lengths." Why would I say... I mean There's no way that it's gonna be stabilized, and that's exactly what happened. So it, so different stride lengths, and then he starts sowing, salt into the beach.

Like, what, this guy's gonna grow salt trees on the beach? Clearly he's insane, right? So he's like convincing, Agamemnon that he's too insane to go fight in the war. And then, oh God, I'm forgetting this guy's name, but like one of the head advisors is like sus about this. He's like, Odysseus is too smart-" There's no way that he can plead, you know, like too insane or like in- he's incompetent.

So he did what any like psych- modern psychiatrist would do, and he sat him down for a psychiatric interview, asked him if he [00:18:00] was having any suicidal or homicidal ideation. Where- are there- do you hear voices? Where are they coming from? Inside your head? Outside? No, I'm just kidding. He didn't do any of that stuff.

His ... He, said if he's truly insane and he can't tell between reality and non-reality, he won't flinch at like harming something that would matter to him. So as Odysseus is plowing the beach, he goes and gets his son, Telemachus, who's an infant at the time, and he sets him down on the beach in the way of the plow.

And as Odysseus is going along, like acting, "Oh, I don't know what I'm doing, the two different stride lengths," he veers around the baby, and he doesn't harm his own son. And then everyone's like, "Sorry, Odysseus, guess you have to go be a general now." 

Margaret: Which is- And he's like, "Damn" ... 

Preston: wild turn of events. Yeah. 

Margaret: Damn.

He's like, "This is not- And then I guess- ... the FMLA paperwork I wanted." Which fair, I would want that for that too. He's like, "I have this like, like [00:19:00] great like winery and my wife and my little son, and you want me to go on this stupid ship for your wife that you don't even like?" And like- 

Preston: Yeah, and also like for trade routes, like what the heck?

I would, yeah, I would be pissed too. No reason I'd wanna do that. Okay. Sorry, this, so the, the advisor's name is, Palamedes, and I guess I guess Calamities and Odysseus, they both had to go to Troy after that. So Odysseus had beef with him the whole time that they're at Troy because he's like, "Bro, I was this close.

Like, I'm only fucking here because of you. Fucking nerd." Okay, so they, they go to Troy for the Trojan War, obviously, and then they basically are... They set up a siege and they're blocked out of the Trojan walls for, like, 10 years. Like, they don't get anywhere. I mean, the, the story of the Trojan War is in Eth- in The Iliad, which I actually have not read.

I was thinking about- I should probably read it. But anyways, [00:20:00] you know, l- long story short, 10 years go by, not a lot of progress happens, and then Odysseus gets this grand idea that they're gonna pretend that they've left, like we gave up after 10 years, and as a way of saying, "You guys beat us, you know, here's, a token of, of our appreciation for how you bested us.

We're gonna leave this horse for Athena's temple." So they, they leave the horse, this hollow wooden horse. Trojans are like, "Free horse." 

Margaret: Trojans and a horse. nothing's popping up. 

Preston: Yeah. So, so the Trojans take in this horse because they were probably looking at some of expensive ones on Amazon, and they're like- Right

"Oh, shoot. I was... I thought I was gonna have to get this made for the temple." They just left it on the beach. They left one here. So easy. Turns out, soldiers inside the horse. So when they bring it in- Turns out ... inside- ... they [00:21:00] escape, open the gates. The Greeks actually never left. They just kinda went around the corner, and then they came right back, invaded Troy, they won.

Odysseus is a genius and a hero. This is actually where The Odyssey starts, like right after the Trojan War is ending. They all decide that they're gonna go home. Agamemnon is, going basically the vanilla route home. He's like, "I'll just... I know what these trade routes are. I'm gonna go exactly where I went, and I'm gonna head straight home."

Sidebar for him. So he sacrificed his daughter for, fair winds while they were sailing there, and his wife did not like that. 

Margaret: Fair. 

Preston: Believe it or not. So his 

Margaret: wife- Sacrificed her, like killed her on, like, an altar or, like, sold her or 

Preston: what? Yeah, like I 

Margaret: guess... 

Preston: I don't actually remember how he sacrificed her, but in the movie, he throws her over the rocks in the ocean.

Margaret: It's tough. That's tough. 

Preston: Yeah. So he actually makes it home pretty timely fashion, like a couple months. Yeah. 

Margaret: And 

Preston: then [00:22:00] his wife kills him. 

Margaret: Period. '

Preston: Cause he- 

Margaret: Sorry. 

Preston: No, I'm kidding ... she's like, "Fuck you." Yeah. 

Margaret: I'm kidding. 

Preston: No, I mean, kinda, kinda fair, yeah. And then, what do you call it? Orestes is their son. He actually goes back and avenges The Agamemnon mom who got killed, so he kills his own mom.

Okay. And then he gets exiled and runs back. And then Electra, who's in like, who's the daughter, she's in like pretty stark support of the dad and also like kind of helps Orestes, Electra complex ... to kill their mother together. Yeah, which is, that's actually where the Electra complex comes from. To clarify, Electra never, like, had any sexual relationship with her dad.

It was, it's more so she had a rivalry with her mother, is how they try to frame it, and a stark devotion to her dad. Because Electra could have said, "You know, Dad threw my little sister into the [00:23:00] ocean I'm on board with this kill him plan when he comes back. Kill him plan. You know, like, like, like my dad's a fuck.

Like, she could've taken that stance, but she- Yeah ... she took the other stance, you know? So, that's what young- 

Margaret: Wait, I thought it was a boy. Wait. Ar- 

Preston: So who does the- Sorry, Orestes and Electra are s- are siblings. And Orestes kills- Orestes is the son. Oh, yeah ... 

Margaret: and he avenges the mom? 

Preston: He avenges the dad by killing the mom.

Margaret: He avenges... Okay, 'cause the mom kills the dad when he comes back for killing- Yeah ... her daughter. 

Preston: Let, let's use names r- really quick. So Agamemnon sacrifices- Sacrifice ... the son, comes back. The wife's name is Clytemnestra. 

Margaret: Did he sacrifice a s- you just said he sacrificed a son. 

Preston: I can't even speak English today.

He sacrifices their youngest daughter. 

Margaret: Got it. 

Preston: But he has two other kids. Orestes- Electra ... 

Margaret: and Electra. And Orestes, okay. Mm-hmm. He comes back. The wife kills him. 

Preston: Right. Orestes avenges him, and Electra helps. [00:24:00] 

Margaret: Got it. And that's where we get Electra Complex, which is the- Mm-hmm ... opposite side of Oedipus complex- 

Preston: Yeah

for those keeping track at home ... which Jung proposed, but Freud actually rejected that because he's like, "Oh, there's no sexual relationship. It should just be called the Female Oedipus Complex." So a little bit of historical beef there. Anyways, so Agamemnon's off doing that. Odysseus has another plan to go home.

He's like, "Oh, I wanna take the scenic route," you know? It's like, "I wanna take Highway 1 to see the California coast." That was his whole plan. So, so they go a different way, and they get lost. 

Margaret: And hijinks ensue. 

Preston: and this is... Yeah, this is where the, the shenanigans start. So we're on year 10. Now, as they're wandering around the, isles, they- 

Margaret: Jason, we're...

I feel like our listeners are wondering when does psychiatry get involved in this? You, we started this with a, "I'm gonna give you a two-minute recap of it." 

Preston: Yeah. Oh, well, we already had plenty of psychiatry with the Electra Complex, so we'll- Well, that was barely psychiatry. We'll, get you some more.[00:25:00] 

So the shenanigans, happen. They run into the Cyclops. Cyclops kills and eats some of their men. They blind him. Then they go off. They run into the Laestrygonians, who are these cannibals. Not, actually not cannibals. They eat men. They aren't men themselves. Then they run into Circe. Circe is a- Girl ... witch hanging out in a cave.

She, invites them in to eat. They slave over- Love her ... her food, or they, g- engorge it. She turns them into pigs. Odysseus is not tricked by that. He says, "I'm not gonna eat your food, and also turn my men back out of being pigs." And she's like, "Okay." And then after Circe, they go into Hades. Hades tells them everyone's gonna die but Odysseus.

And then Odysseus- In the 

Margaret: movie, are they not lovers? 

Preston: Circe and Odysseus? 

Margaret: Circe and Odysseus are, yeah, in the book- Oh ... and in the book I read and also in I think the actual Odyssey, there's more in- inclinations that they, he, they stay on the island for a long time, and not just 'cause they're trapped.

Preston: No, in the movie they stay there for, like, two days. [00:26:00] 

Margaret: Okay. 

Preston: Probably a day, yeah. Then after the underworld, they tell them where they have to go to get home, which means they have to go past the sirens. Odysseus is like, "I wanna listen to the sirens, so all my friends are gonna stuff wax- ... in their ears, and you can strap me to the mast."

He's like- And 

Margaret: then after the- ... nothing bad can happen. 

Preston: After the sirens, they go get, effed up by a whirlpool and, a multi-headed beast, and then they go land on Apollo's, island. They slaughter his cattle because they run out of, rations. And then when they try to sail away, they get punished.

Everybody dies except Zu- Odysseus, who, washes up on the shore of Calypso's island, and then he stays with Calypso for seven years eating lotus flower until he finally, like, comes to about what he wants to do, and then he floats home, kills all the suitors, and reconnects with Penelope. And that's the story of Odysseus.[00:27:00] 

So when I was watching the movie, the first thing that came to mind was lotus flower use disorder. 

Margaret: Okay. Say more 'Cause seven years is a 

Preston: long time to be sitting there eating lotus flower on the beach. And, at its core, all use disorders, functionally are, maladaptive forms of coping.

And I think my theory is that, you know, some people can use lotus flower recreationally, but if you've undergone significant distress and trauma, you know, like losing your entire crew or, you know, witnessing a Cyclops eat people or war, then, you'd be more likely to, deal with lotus flower misuse or abuse.

But, so I think that, you know, my first DSM diagnosis that I'll offer is Odysseus has being LUD, [00:28:00] lotus use disorder. 

Margaret: Lotus use disorder, and keeps him stuck in indecision and kind of a way of numbing. Like, what is the- Yeah ... decision point he's trying to make? Or, like, what does he end up having... He decides to go home, but, like, what is the, how is it shown in the film?

Preston: Basically that he, like, forgets where he was, where he is in space and time. He just kinda, like, hangs out. Goes fishing with Calypso and eats the flower. That's it. which is, I think, decent, a decent enough depiction of how Greek mythology describes a lotus flower, which essentially just kind of takes you out of, like, your orientation to space and time, and makes you forget about all the stuff that you thought you cared about or prioritized.

And the analogy I would draw to it is almost like with our, like, screen time and cellphone use. I feel like- Yeah ... or soma. Like, those two things come to mind, soma being from the Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. 

Margaret: Mm-hmm. Yes, yeah, which is [00:29:00] something I feel like people bring up when they talk about psychiatry sometimes which is like, is what you're doing just kind of this thing?

and sort of just an opiate, but, metaphorically speaking. Okay. Yeah. So I see that. And so kind of post-trauma, he's coming in, he's getting stuck. Is there anyone with him there? Is he by himself at that point? 

Preston: He's... Calypso's feeding him the lotus flower. He's, so he's with a nymph. 

Margaret: Got it. Okay. Okay. So we've kind of reviewed all of it.

I w- I wanna keep talking about these figures in it, but first we take a break really quick. We'll be right back

All right, so we have lotus flower, we have Electra and Oedipus complex. What other ones do we have? Mm-hmm. 

Preston: So I'll, open the floor to you if you have one. Otherwise, I'm gonna keep going along with all the other diagnoses that I saw. 

Margaret: I guess I don't think of it in this way. I don't know. Someone-- I was talking to someone about this the other day who's a, also a therapist, and they were, like, talking about taking [00:30:00] a break from their work, and they were further in their career.

And I was talking to them, and they were kind of saying, like, "I need to, like, turn it off and not have that," 'cause it was, like, coming into every other part of their life, which certainly burnout does that. But when we were talking, they were asking me dealing with it, and I was like, "I really feel like this analyzing psychiatry, like, diagnosing part of my brain honestly turns off when I'm, like, not at work."

and, like, I don't know why that is. But so I have been thinking about this since I knew we were doing the episode, and it's hard for me to, it's hard for me to take it into my mind and, like, come up with diagnoses or put labels on things because it's like my brain knows it's not it, and so it's like, I won't do it.

I don't know what, I don't know what that is. Yeah. So I feel like I don't have a ton of o- ones that I'm thinking about in terms of psychiatric diagnoses, but I also think that mythology and in general is such a, like, rich text in terms of [00:31:00] not pathology, but, like, archetypes and figures of, like, journeys that people can relate to in, terms of, like, therapy, which I think can be...

I f- I feel like there's probably a lot of therapists who have people coming in after seeing this movie, which is like this massive kind of work of art, bringing parts of it that resonate into them this week in their clinics. Like, "I saw this and it reminded me of this." You know what I mean? 

Preston: Yeah. so, like, from the, episode last week we did, that word sonostalgia.

Margaret: Mm-hmm. 

Preston: Where it's like you return to your home, but you're nostalgic for, like, what it used to be. Even though you're in the same location, it's, like, changed. So I think, like, that, I think that concept is captured pretty well when Odysseus returns- Oh, 100% ... and he has to, like, present himself in a different way.

I actually th- I think you're right about the, like, turning off the medical part of your brain is, and enjoying the classics for what they are. When I [00:32:00] started this exercise, I thought it'd be just kinda like a fun thing to do, but I also found myself realizing that when I'm trying to find these diagnoses, I'm, like, bending the criteria for the diagnoses and also exaggerating or minimizing certain parts about the classics to, like, make it fit, and I was like, "Oh, this is kind of annoying."

Which is why I think I'm being, like, extra with the lotus use disorder and everything else. So I think it's still, kind of a fun gimmick to go through, but- Yeah ... it's taken lightly. But 

Margaret: I mean, I think that's like, I think that's reality in clinic most days too, right? Like- We have these diagnoses that we're trying to fit even more complex than these characters we read about in a book into, or in a mov- or see in a movie.

And that feeling of like, this doesn't quite fit or I'm bending this or that, like I've, you and I, have talked about this, like it feels that way when we're having to type into the little billing box for insurance like, "Yeah, I guess this person who suffered this, that, and the third and has these strengths is..."

What we're doing here is treating a, you know, [00:33:00] mild, almost in remission depressive episode. Like Maybe. I don't know. Yes, we are, and? 

Preston: Yeah. Whi- which is what leads me into my hear me out. 

Margaret: Okay. 

Preston: So h- hear me out, Polyphemus, the Cyclops, has

schizoid personality disorder. 

Margaret: Okay, say more. 'Cause he doesn't care? 

Preston: He doesn't interact with them. He doesn't wanna talk to anyone, in the movie at least. He just wants to hang out, make cheese, herd his little flock, and go to sleep. There's nothing else. Like, he doesn't need to socialize with anyone. He doesn't need to interact with anyone.

He's like, "I'm the son of Poseidon. I'm here on my island. Do my own thing." In, in the movie, he's, like, more antisocial. in the book or in the poem, he does, like, interact and, like, talk with the men, but not in a way that, like, he cares about, like, having a relationship with them. He just sees them as, like, fodder and is annoyed that they, like, tricked, trick him, where [00:34:00] he's like, "Who poked my eye out?

How could you?" And Odysseus is like, "No one." So when you tell your friends, you're gonna say, "No one." It's like, it's like, I know you are, but what am I type energy. I thought that was so funny. So yeah, so sc- that's number two, schizoid personality disorder. And, 

Margaret: Doesn't care about, like... Doesn't desire and is also not, like, someone who's, like, socially anxious that's like, "Oh, I, I hope these sailors come to my shore and I...

Will they like me? But it's too stressful." or wants to connect but is, doesn't know how to, things like that. Just "This is my life. Why are you here? I'm perfectly self-sustaining. get out or I'll eat you." 

Preston: Yeah. Exactly. Okay, next one- 

Margaret: Mm-hmm ... 

Preston: is gonna be, prolonged complex grief disorder in Penelope.

[music]: Okay. Yeah. 

Preston: So... And then she also has a fair amount of, I [00:35:00] would say, sublimation. So she puts all of her time into making the weave of, like, the funeral rug for Odysseus, but she goes back and undoes it every night. Mm-hmm. 'Cause she doesn't actually wanna finish the project because she's, having trouble moving on.

Margaret: Yeah. And what makes you say complex, like, PTSD rather than regular P- PTSD, regular PTSD? So I, think this is 

Preston: funny. Like, so it's how we treat the timelines for it. So the, the core criteria for prolonged grief disorder is the death of a close person at least 12 months prior. 

[music]: Mm-hmm. 

Preston: And you have to still have a marked sense of disbelief or trouble accepting the death, identity disruption, avoidance of reminders that the person is dead, intense emotional pain, emotional numbness, feeling that life is meaningless 

[music]: Yeah.

Preston: And I think this is an interesting commentary because, you know, it's been 20 years since Odysseus has come back, and she's still, like, arguably [00:36:00] stuck and having trouble moving on. And I think this is celebrated in the film or in the story that, like, this is the, beautiful loyalty of a woman, and it's not pathologized.

But if that same person were to come into our clinic, we'd be like, "Oh, this is prolonged grief disorder. the billing code for that is, like, F62.8." Mm-hmm. 

Margaret: Mm-hmm. 

Preston: You know, be like, "Your insurance will pay me later. Don't worry about it." Do you think that Penelope should've moved on? Is that re- is it reasonable for her to hang out for 20 years?

Margaret: I'm gonna say some shit that you're gonna be like this 

Preston: No, say, say it. 

Margaret: I mean, what's reasonable about love? Can we name that in the D- DSM? Is that the job of the DSM? 

Preston: Mm-hmm. 

Margaret: I don't know. If she's functioning and doing... Like, let's say she walks in as a modern person. Let's say that we're in the world of some, like, fanfic of The Odyssey.

If she's happy and hasn't found anyone else and, like, revives the memories and is otherwise doing well, is that within the realm of psychiatry to name as [00:37:00] something that should or shouldn't be. I don't really think so. 

Preston: I kind of agree. Like, I think a lot of our assessment of grief is, like, to handle our own discomfort with other people not moving on.

But if she doesn't wanna move on, you know, you don't need a doctor for that. 

Margaret: I feel like we have to keep the, at the center of the DSM is that, now, and this doesn't apply perfectly for everything like delusional disorders or like schizophrenia sometimes, but it has to be disruptive to be a diagnosis.

Like, at the core of mental health concerns is that it disrupts you in multiple, usually multiple settings, and that there is something that it feels untenable to continue with. And if she's like-- And granted, she's in grief and she has sadness. I just, I think we have to have a lot of humility when it comes to naming things that the science can't actually answer, because it's sort of just arbitrary to say, like, when should grief end?

How should someone hold their grief? Like, because, like, the exact conversation we're having. Like, would we say someone who didn't grieve enough time in the way that we expect them to is, like, [00:38:00] cold and wasn't actually, like, a loving, loyal partner? 

[music]: Mm-hmm. 

Margaret: I don't know about that. Like, there, there is at the center of psychiatry this, like, philosophy and somewhat at times arbitrary, especially if we decide we own truth and not the patient in front of us to decide, like, when is disruption to function happening, when does a diagnosis make sense.

Preston: Would you-- This is us being more hypothetical. Would you say that suitors ransacking your house for years or, like, tolerating that, would that be a sign of dysfunction? 

Margaret: Well, did she have any choice to not have them? Did she have any choice to say no? Wasn't the whole thing if, like she has to or they're gonna enter your grace.

Like 

Preston: her only, 

choice was to take a husband, right? Yeah, she couldn't- Yeah, 

Margaret: her only choice was, like, functionally- But she 

Preston: otherwise couldn't kick them out. 

Margaret: Yeah ... marriage approved rape, right? If she doesn't wanna get married, and it's like get married or not. 

Preston: Yeah. Yeah, no, I think that's, I think that's right.

Margaret: And then the question of like, well, does getting, not choosing that or [00:39:00] letting whatever, it's like, well, did sh- did she have a choice? Like, was the choice between suffering and suffering? 

Preston: Mm-hmm. 

Margaret: Kinda sounds like. I mean, and I don't know. And you could, you can imagine, like, putting that in a different way if it was not by force and it was like she did actually have choice and she's not getting out of bed and, like, rotting, then- Mm-hmm

maybe we would call it depression in this, like, hypothetical. 

Preston: And- But she was pretty active. 

Margaret: Yeah 

Preston: Okay. Moving on, we have a kind of a, a new story that I'm gonna introduce. So this i- this guy was not mentioned, but h- his name is, Ajax. Maybe you're familiar with him. So he was with Odysseus at Troy, and he was a great, warrior.

huge dude, would, like, jump from ship to ship. He was fighting Hector, who was one of the, the Trojans. And at the very end of the war, when they're kind of dividing up the spoils and, [00:40:00] Paris comes together, to kill Achilles, and I think he gets back at him. Anyways, Achilles' armor is on the table, and Odysseus and Ajax are vying for it.

And Ajax sees himself as this great dude. He's like, "Oh, I'm awesome. I basically single-handedly was, like, jumping from ship to ship and, like, crushing these people. It should go to me." But then Odysseus is... he's more eloquent in arguing his case, and he's, got that whole horse thing too that everyone's like, "That was pretty sick, Odysseus."

So actually, they decide to give Achilles' armor to Odysseus instead. And Ajax is, like, so upset about this that he goes into this, like, depressive stupor, and he starts confusing... He's like, gets, enraged and vengeful, and he starts slaughtering animals, but he's confusing them for people, and then he eventually commits suicide- 

Margaret: Oh

Preston: because he's, like, so pissed about not getting this armor. 

Margaret: Yeah. 

Preston: So [00:41:00] rather than going straight to the DSM for that one, I would say that is a narcissistic collapse- 

that's leading- Explain ... into... So narcissistic collapse is essentially when the, like, coping structure that someone has around their personality, the scaffolding falls apart.

I think one thing that people forget about personality disorders is that they're often revealed when people are taken out of the environment that supports their personality. So, a- and, like, a hallmark of, like, a healthy or well-adjusted personality is to be able to adjust to different dynamic environments, different social structures.

But someone with a personality disorder would be, like, really rigid. So a great example of that with narcissism is that narcissists Do really well if they're always being praised and it turns out they're always winning. If they're always being told that they're the best, everything's great. Like, they actually function pretty well as long as, like, they're being told they're good.

But the second, like, they [00:42:00] fail or someone else is being praised over them, that's when, like, s- things start to fall apart. because, like, at their core, they are trying to project that inner worthlessness that they're worried about onto the world, and they're covering up with affirmation that they try to obtain externally.

It's like very, really complex or not... It's actually relatively simple, but it's, really rigid system. So when that, that theme is broken, like you're told you're no longer the greatest or you're washed up, whatever- 

Margaret: You're not given the suit of the prize, right? The armor. 

Preston: You don't get Achilles' armor.

Yeah. Yeah. Then your entire, like, self-concept destructs. you're like, "I am just as worthless as I was always worried that I was," and you undergo like ego death, probably akin to a star collapsing on itself, like black hole style. 

Margaret: Mm-hmm. 

Preston: And then that can actually unravel into an episode that would meet [00:43:00] criteria for major depressive disorder, but it's like driven by this, like, personality structure.

Margaret: Well, and there's this like both for the, for this character, there's both externalizing, granted with some psychotic flair around like thinking the animals are people, but thinking he's killing people, and then there's the internalizing and the violence towards self and the suicide. Although also, I mean, I think one of the ways we think about violence in psychiatry, there's violence within psychosis, which is not as common as I think the lay, as the lay public thinks that it is.

Then there's also interpersonal violence or showing of violence that can be still pretty impulsive, but about exerting power in some ways and dynamics. Mm-hmm. And then the, the other thing I just wanna mention is that, like, the reason that we talk about defenses kind of psychodynamically and even in modern psychiatry is because we think that the defenses, like you're saying, in the usual day-to-day and how they formed in the environment they were growing up in, [00:44:00] those defenses kept the pain somewhat at bay or kept something that you didn't want to know unknowable.

And so when we do therapy with people, we actively do not try to strip away everyone-- someone's defenses, because defenses aren't bad in and of themselves. Having a little bit of narcissism, right? Having a little bit of overdependence, a little bit of this, a little bit of that, none of those things are bad in itself, and it's sort of a set of coping strategies.

But like you said, when they get very rigid or when they're suddenly completely gone and denied, then what happens next can be really difficult, whether it's externalized or internalized or 

Preston: dissociative. yeah, like, like you said, a, a little bit of it's healthy, like it, it gives you confidence.

And also everyone has a little bit of it, even if it's not always adaptive. We've all got something a 

Margaret: little funky, okay? We've all got a little bit of 

Preston: a 

Margaret: stank- Yeah ... like part of our personality. 

Preston: Here's the thing, Margaret, I don't think you have narcissistic personality disorder, but if you got denied Achilles armor, [00:45:00] I imagine you'd be a little bummed, especially if you really wanted it.

Margaret: Mm-hmm. 

Preston: You know? Like, who, among us wouldn't be like, "Man, that would've been pretty sick"? 

Margaret: Yeah. Well, and also the, like, when you're taken to a different... All of us have a way that we deal with stressors, that we have positive ways we deal with those, and then we have ways we each fall apart in our own very special, sometimes unhealthy way.

And that's in family and friendship and relationships why you get to see that part that other people don't see. It's like, "Oh, here it is." It's like, "Here's your Achilles heel," if you will, when you don't get Achilles armor. 

Preston: Exactly 

Margaret: And yeah 

Preston: Those are the three big diagnoses that were coming to me from The Odyssey.

I think this is more so just me wanting an excuse to talk about The Odyssey which has been on my mind recently, and I've been going through Greek mythology. And that, that's kind of my segue into this last part, which is I think a lot of us find the, the roots of our medical terms, in like Greek mythology to be kind of [00:46:00] fun.

Mm-hmm. So I actually want us to go through a, a pretty fast round robin of maybe the stuff that you didn't know came from Greek mythology. Oh, okay. Because, 'cause there's a lot of things that we do, right? Yeah. So we'll start with the obvious stuff. Oedipus complex. Mm-hmm. Everybody knows where that came from, the story of Oedipus.

Jocasta complex, that's just Oedipus's mom. I've never heard that. Yeah. Oedipus's mom's name is Jocasta. It goes the, it's the other direction. So it's like boy mom complex? Yeah. It's boy mom. Mm-hmm. 

Margaret: It's the weird edge. Love boy moms, we love you, okay? But we're talking about a very 

Preston: specific- Yeah, but, you got a Jocasta complex.

Sorry ... 

Margaret: term when it gets f- weird online. 

Preston: Okay. N- next we have the... And I won't, I'm not gonna go through the stories of this one, but there's the Phaedra complex. That is the step-parent with sexual attraction towards a stepchild. Whoa. And it can also be extended into like just having a very tight or close or intimate relationship, not necessarily a sexual one.

Margaret: Mm-hmm. 

Preston: I feel like the Phaedra complex is, That's seen a lot in like porn and other like kind of, [00:47:00] more like fetishized fields. So- 

Margaret: Ugh ... 

Preston: I don't study that stuff, but it is kind of interesting that it- I mean, I don't study like porn addiction- ... or the Phaedra complex specifically, you know? It's- 

Margaret: Yeah.

I mean, I don't know. I think this is one of the parts I don't like love about Freudian dynamics, is I think that like on one hand, modern society and, you know, Victorian society, like early 1900s, has weird prudishness around sexuality and expression of it. Mm-hmm. But then also it vacillates between like avoidance and prudishness and like over-fixation and that everything is sexual.

And so I... This is where I like kind of am like, "Okay, whatever." Like, but yes. Yeah. Okay, but so what's the story? Who's Phaedra? Do you know? 

Preston: Okay. The... Let's see. The story of Phaedra. I read it. I was reading a lot of stories, this morning and last night, and now they're starting to run together. 

Margaret: Us, start reading my stories over my coffee.

Preston: Yeah. No, th- that was just me with these. Okay. So, [00:48:00] she was a, a Cretan princess who suffered a, a tragic fate. She f- so she fell in love with her stepson, Hippolytus. And actually, the stepson was like, "Nah, stepmom, I'm not into that." And she was so embarrassed that she killed herself 

Margaret: Well, there it is.

Preston: Yeah, the Greeks were like, cut to the chase, you know, let's 

Margaret: just- I mean, to be fair, like incest was common before like the last- 

Preston: Mm-hmm ... 

Margaret: 200 years, so whatever. Anyway, next one. 

Preston: Okay, echolalia. Okay. Did not think this one would have roots in Greek mythology. So Echo was actually a nymph 

Margaret: who would- Yeah, 

Preston: is that 

Margaret: the...

Go, say it. 

Preston: Yeah, so she would hang out in the forest, and she could yap and yap I mean, she could just talk nonstop. Crazy. She would talk Zeus's ear off. She would talk anyone who wanted to come to her. And I think she, if I remember right, she pissed off Athena, and Athena was like, "I'm gonna curse you, and my curse to [00:49:00] you is that you can only speak when spoken to.

And when you are spoken to, all you can do is repeat what they say." 

[music]: Oh. 

Preston: And so Echo is like, "Oh, shit." She's out in the woods, and she's hanging out, and then she sees Narcissus. And she's like, "Wow, that guy is good-looking." And she's like basically stalking him. She wants to go talk to him, but she can't, and then Narcissus would be like, "Who's there?

Who's there?" And then Echo would be like, "Who's there?" "

Margaret: Who's there?" Yeah. 

Preston: You know, who's there back. Yeah. So that's the story of, 

Margaret: Did they, did- ... 

Preston: Echo and Narcissus ... wait, did 

Margaret: Narcissa- did they ever say more than that? 'Cause I could see that as a- I think Narcissus rebuffed 

Preston: her ... 

Margaret: as a ship. Oh, because I felt like Narcissus would enjoy someone just repeating what they say.

Preston: Well, he did until he caught a glimpse of his reflection, and then he's just like Yeah. He's like, "I do a little of this." What I just saw, in that pool down there, that... Don't- I don't care about what you're echoing back to me. I've got this own ref- other [00:50:00] reflection to worry about. okay. 

Margaret: All right.

Preston: Next one. Next one. Priaprism. 

Margaret: What is that one 

Preston: meant to do? So Priapus is actually a demigod. Who would've thought? Oh, really? Or maybe... I think he's a small god of fertility, yeah. 

Margaret: Okay. 

Preston: so he was cursed upon birth by Athena as well. 

Margaret: Girl, she's mad, and I love that about you, Athena. 

Preston: Yeah, so basically this, Priapus' dad had a child with Aphrodite, and I think the dad said, like, "Oh, I think Aphrodite's, like, way more pretty than Athena."

And Athena's 

Margaret: like- Mm-hmm ... "

Preston: Get out of here." Bro. So, so she curses, Priapus to have a permanent erection, except for when he tries to engage in sexual intercourse, then he'll become impotent. That was, like, his curse. And he had... He... Like, if you look up, if you look up drawings of Priapus, I don't think you will.[00:51:00] 

He, has a huge schlong, and- Okay, next one ... he would 

Margaret: like, and he'd end up like- Preston, next 

Preston: one. Next one 

Margaret: Every time with you. Why every time? 

Preston: Okay. ch- ch- this is an interesting one. Cassandra syndrome. 

Margaret: I know this one. 

Preston: You've heard of it? Okay, so- Yeah, 

Margaret: Taylor Swift wrote a song about it also. 

Preston: Oh, fascinating.

So basically, They killed 

Margaret: Cassandra first 'cause she feared the worst, period, Taylor Swift lyrics. Let's go. 

Preston: So I think Cassandra got cursed by Zeus. 

Margaret: Mm-hmm. 

Preston: And essentially, he was like, "I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you- Perfect, lucidity- Future predicting ... and foresight- Yeah ... clairvoyance about what's happening, but you- No one will ever believe you

promises no one will believe you. Yeah. No one will listen to you. 

Margaret: Mm-hmm. 

Preston: And so, like, Cassandra syndrome is to describe someone who's just, like, chronically invalidated by everything they're trying to say. So, like, the- the third-year med student who's hanging out on the wards and they, like, [00:52:00] discovered, like, what might be the right diagnoses, or they're obsessed with, like, the zebra, and it actually is the zebra, but no one is listening to them, that's, like, Cassandra syndrome.

But you could expand it to some of the more, like, common, like, Cluster B, disorders we see. Like, someone who's been, like, emotionally invalidated their entire childhood with, like, a lot of, like, small T trauma or something like that. you could clump that in with Cassandra syndrome. 

Margaret: I have not seen it used in that way.

I usually see it used as just more talking about, like, people who were right first and in some what in the feminist literature. And no one believed you. 

Preston: Yeah. 

Margaret: And Taylor Swift's lyrics are, "So they killed Cassandra first 'cause she feared the worst and tried to tell the town. They filled my cell with snakes, I regret to say.

Do you believe me now?" And then also a banger lyric from this, "When the first stone's thrown, they're screaming in the streets, there's a raging riot. When it's burn the bitch, they're shrieking. When the truth comes out, it's quiet." 

Preston: Damn. 

Margaret: The pen's fire. The pen's always fire, and that was- That's- ... the Tortured Poets Department

that was pretty hard. but yes. Okay. Cool. I mean, not cool, but you know [00:53:00] what I mean. 

Preston: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. After, after Cta- Cassandra syndrome, we have panic. That actually comes from Pan. So- 

his little groundless terror. He would go in the bushes and scream at people. Panic. 

Margaret: What's the root? Like, is it truly the root is, like, they call it the god and then they named it?

Preston: Yeah, I think so. 

Margaret: Interesting. Who knew? Yeah. 

Preston: Yeah, 

Margaret: you're right 

Preston: Ancient Greek, yeah. Wild woods and flocks, Pan. Humans to fully and 

Margaret: unreasoned, unreasonable fear. Unreasoning fear. Yeah, a little Pan. 

Preston: Panic disorder. 

Margaret: That's cool. Yeah. It's cool that it's, like, these things that are so, you know- 

Preston: Yeah, that, 

Margaret: that's 

Preston: what-

embedded ... it's like, yeah, it's so ubiquitous. Yeah, it's just a part of your life. you didn't even... Didn't realize it. Okay, next one. Morphine comes from Morpheus, which is the dream god. 

Margaret: Oh. Boom. 

Preston: Yeah, let me give you some dreams. [00:54:00] 

Margaret: Let me give you some dream. Go morphine. 

Preston: which brings us to the next one, which is, hypnosis.

That comes from Hypnos, another god of sleep. Okay. So Hypnos was the god of sleep. Morpheus was the god of dreams, if I remember. We 

Margaret: still need to do an episode on dreams. People have been asking for it. 

Preston: Yeah, that would be fun. 

Margaret: We need to... I want to read, like, Freud's book on dreams to do actually the episode, and then do, like, a follow-up episode where we have, like, a sleep neurologist come on and talk about just, like, the very different part of, like, current understanding of dreams.

Like, that's the twofer that I want to happen. I don't know if we have time for this season to do it. That would be fun. That's the level of reading, though, I want to do for it. 

Preston: I could try my best at, like, a neuro- like, our understanding of the neurochemistry of dreams, but I would- I also 

Margaret: would, I wanna, like-

Preston: it'd just be me 

Margaret: taking a stab at it ... sleep neurologist per- I feel like there's a, number of people that, like, in that world that I would like love to have explain it. 

Preston: Yeah. that would be a lot of fun. 

Margaret: Okay. And then we'll get Freud to come on and explain 

Preston: his book. Well, if you could bring anyone back from the dead, yeah.

Freud, you have some explaining to do. aphrodisiac, pretty obvious one, comes from [00:55:00] Aphrodite. 

Margaret: Aphrodite. 

Preston: Didn't realize it. But the interesting one is, that I didn't make the connection for, is venereal disease comes from Venus. Oh. Also Aphrodite. 

Margaret: Disease of love, okay. 

Preston: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Margaret: Boom. 

Preston: Okay. 

Margaret: did you ever read Percy Jackson books?

Preston: I did. 

Margaret: Okay, so... Okay, wait, sorry. Do you have more that you prepared for the episode, or was that it? 

Preston: No, I have a couple, I have a couple more- Okay ... fast ones. So- 

Margaret: I'll ask this question at the end then ... 

Preston: hygiene comes from Hygieia. 

Margaret: Oh. 

Preston: Which is- Who is- ... the goddess of preventative health. 

Margaret: Boom. we need to listen to her more on vaccines.

Preston: Yeah. Yeah, we do. 

Margaret: Or him. Whatever, them. 

Preston: Okay. I'm, I have a couple others that I'm not sure if I wanna get into. So there's... Oh, the, the maenads. do you know who these are? 

So all I could think of is just, like, clear rave baddies. So there's this... It's basically, the maenads are these female followers of Dionysus.[00:56:00] 

And- Okay ... they kind of go into this, like, mass partying frenzy and, like, dance for days. So the- Oh, like mania ... maenad phenomenon. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so that's where mania comes from. Or the thought of it, being manic, the main ads. All right, and that's all I got for you. There's a couple other, like, weird niche ones that I don't think, like, necessarily relate to anything, like the Medea Complex.

Margaret: What is that one? 

Preston: Maternal... All, my, my note here just says, "Maternal filicide motivated by a partner's revenge." But I don't think I've, like, ever even, like, come across that one. At least, like, Cassandra syndrome I've seen before. 

Margaret: Yeah. Okay, here's my question for the end of our episode. 

Preston: Okay. 

Margaret: Ish. If you had to be the, like, child of a god, which one do you think it would be?

Not which one do you want it to be, which one... It can be a mixture of want and reality. 

Preston: Oh, I see what you're saying. Okay, I'll do... I'll answer your question. Yeah. But then I'll do you one more. 

Margaret: Okay. 

Preston: Let's [00:57:00] suppose you found out that you were cursed by a god. 

Margaret: Okay. 

Preston: But you've been living with that curse already your whole life.

Margaret: Okay. 

Preston: So, a- and so basically go back and be like, "Wait, what was my curse?" Like- yeah ... like, let me piece this together. 

Margaret: Huh. 

Preston: Yeah. Okay, so answering your question, who do I think I'd actually be the god of? I'd say probably Hermes. 

Margaret: Okay. Why? 

Preston: I, I like, I'm very... I like communicating and I like running.

Herm- Hermes was, like, he was always just the messenger, like, running about. And I think that, like, the joke of my curse is that I want to be, like, free and communicating and spreading messages everywhere and, ta- like speaking my mind. But the, the curse is that I can't keep a coherent thought enough long enough to send it out to people.

And then I'll stumble on my words and, because of that, [00:58:00] like, th- it's a little bit of like a Cassandra sy- syndrome that it doesn't, get heard in the right way. I don't know. Got it. So I think I'd, I think it'd be fun to be like one of the big three, but I don't think I'd be one of the big three.

I think I'd be Hermes. 

Margaret: okay. I think I would be a child of

Persephone. 'cause she's, like, in hell, but she's also, like, the mother of, like, flowers and spring. And so I feel like the dialectic It's like... And then the curse is that, like, the curse is too obvious to say, and I actually don't believe this about myself, but it's that, like, the love of her life is, like, the devil

which I don't actually think. But I will say, in Hercules, I do like his character the most. So maybe that there's something with that. But I like the, the duality of Persephone, even though there's much more of a dark [00:59:00] story and kind of being captured and not actually love that I'm aware of, you guys. but I like the duality.

And then the curse is, like, also the duality. Like, the curse is that you don't get to stay only in the sun and in the flourishing and the, like, spring. it's like you also have to- Mm-hmm ... go down into the dark and come back out. That's the actual curse, I think. 

Preston: The curse is usually, like, you have a great gift, but you can't use it in some way.

Margaret: Yeah. Well, and Persephone's limited, right? She has to spend- Yeah ... which, I mean, I've... You know this. I, like, write a lot about, like- It's, 

Preston: like, seven months out of the year or something ... 

Margaret: and I live in New England. 

Preston: So, so there you go. Yeah. 

Margaret: But you know what I mean? Like, and I don't know. I guess for me, also part of it is thinking of, like, I also have a belief that there kind of has to be darkness for there to be the lightness.

And so I think- 

Preston: Mm-hmm ... 

Margaret: less of a curse, but more of a, like, drawn to, like, there's some reality to contrast being the sharpener of life. A- and so I like the curse and the blessing of it. That's my answer for you. 

Preston: Maybe my curse is that it's, [01:00:00] I have a good sense of direction, but I can't trust myself. 

Margaret: Why you say that?

Preston: Maybe this is me getting into my own issues too much, but I've noticed that there's a lot of decisions I made in my life, like where to go to college, how to, like, orient my career. A lot of those, like, those big ones were heavily influenced by, like, me either soliciting counsel or, like, getting advice from people that I, like, trusted, so to speak.

And I think a lot of those have turned out poorly, and the times that I have just kind of done what I think could be good or took a risk, those have turned out well, I guess. So, like, a conclusion I'm ma- making as I'm rounding out 30 is I just need to trust myself more. 

Margaret: Maybe Saturn has returned. 

Preston: yeah, exactly.[01:01:00] 

Margaret: Welcome. And what a time for it too. 

Preston: Yeah. 

Margaret: It's a good time astrologically speaking. like I'm 

Preston: not gonna give specifics, but, like, I feel like I had a lot of, I, I had a lot of pressure to join the military. Mm-hmm. And that's hasn't turned out how I wanted it to. I feel like I have a lot of, like, regret and resentment about that.

But nobody pushed me to go into medicine, so very glad I did. Nobody pushed me. Like, I got a lot of people kind of ushering me or pushing me towards, you know, surgery or more interventional specialties. I chose psychiatry, very happy about that. I'll tell you for free, nobody in my life suggested that I should get into social media, start a podcast, except for the Glaucomflecken- The voice in your head

Jason, you guys, yeah. but as far as like, "Hey, Preston, maybe this is something you..." Like, zero encouragement. And it's been, like, I think one of the things I'm most grateful for, that I have. 

[music]: Yeah. Yeah. 

Preston: So it's like, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. and maybe it's just, like, a more of a matter of, like, what advisors or counselors you have in your life- 

Margaret: Yeah, 

Preston: rather than just, like, trusting yourself. [01:02:00] 

Margaret: Cool. I like this question. I like your answers. And listeners in the Spotify comments, answer this question for us if you feel like it. I just think this is, like, one of my favorite kind of reflective questions to ask my patients, which is, like, something sort of topical to what they're into but that asks-- It just, like, tilts things a little bit and makes you look at it slightly differently.

So it, it gets cool answers that I always feel like are interesting. So listeners, let us know in the Spotify comments. 

Preston: That is a great question. Thank you for bringing that up. if you guys do wanna come chat with us, you can always find us on Instagram and TikTok @humancontentpods. I'm @itsPresro, Margaret's @bettereveryday, and together we have, @howtobepatient on Instagram.

It's like our little neopet. 

Margaret: Our Patreon has our bonus shenanigans that we are doing- Mm-hmm ... for each episode, which sometimes will be part of the episode, sometimes will be separately related, and really is also becoming our ch- our, like, co-parented child in addition to the Instagram. 

Preston: Agreed. It, it'll be-- It has the same hoopla that [01:03:00] Odysseus probably went through at one point or another and but with a lot less, Cyclopses and being eaten, and a lot more just fun videos about what we're doing and also meditation.

thanks again for listening. What's your age? We're your hosts, Preston Roche and Margaret Duncan. Our executive producers are me, Preston Roche, Margaret Duncan, Will Flanary, Kristin Flanary, Aron Korney, Rob Goldman, and Shahnti Brooke. Our editor and engineer is Jason Portizo. Shout out Jason's band. Our music is by Omer Ben-Zvi.

To learn more about our program disclaimer and ethics policy, submission verification licensing terms, and our HIPAA release terms, go to howtobepatientpod.com or reach out to us at howtobepatient@human-content.com with any questions or concerns. How to Be Patient is a Human Content production.[01:04:00] 

Thank you for watching. If you wanna see more of us or if you wanna see... This is Lilac. She's my cat. She's gonna be waving her hand at one of the floating boxes, which will lead to more episodes. Lilac, point to the other episodes. Lilac doesn't know what the internet is, but I swear they're there. They pr- they probably exist for real.

But in the meantime, I'm just gonna pet Lilac, and then I'm gonna go dance in the [01:05:00] background