Nutritional Psychiatry with Dr. Drew Ramsey (Part 2)

Margaret: [00:00:00] Okay. Preston, I had five cookies today, so you can I, you can scold me. 

Preston: Aw, thanks for sharing, Margaret. You're welcome. Okay, well and I love them. I regret them. 

Margaret: How to patient. Hey guys, we are back for part two of our episode with Dr. Drew Ramsey on nutritional psychiatry, as well as lifestyle factors or the nine pillars towards mental fitness.

As he talks about in his new book, we. Had so much to talk about with him. We may bring him back for another part of the episode if he will come after for two and a half hours. 

Preston: Y'all are essentially watching us, like go through like a mentoring session. 

Margaret: You're 

Preston: at the same time as 

Margaret: Yeah, a little bit. A couple's therapy podcast, duo mentoring session.

Yeah. 

Preston: There's a lot of psychodynamic themes that are about to get thrown around. So, um, if you wanna get caught up, you can watch the previous episode where we kind of introduced the book. But in this [00:01:00] episode we're gonna go more into like what a nutritional psychiatry appointment would look like. And that patient is Preston and his bro, like ways and me a little bit.

Margaret: But yeah, you, 

Preston: yeah, I feel like it was supposed to be both equally and well. I didn't 

Margaret: mean to center, but, sorry. Hey, hey. 

Preston: It's what, it's what happens when you're star show, you know, 

Margaret: I know that's wrong. Just. 

Preston: Just a ultra, we go ultra processed avantgarde. That's what I do. This is an 

Margaret: ultra processed episode brought to you by Nutritional Psychiatry.

Preston: Alright, well with that, let's roll into the episode.

Margaret: I made a kale salad. I made a kale Caesar salad, and I used anchovies to make the Caesar dressing. Um, and I just wanted to show you it, and we can edit the clip of this in, but 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: I'm so, I'm so happy for that. Uh, Margaret also sets up like one of my favorite [00:02:00] like historical points about kale. Perhaps you, you heard this press, you know about this.

Like in Rome, you know, everyone says like, kale's, like a new fad food. Oh, really? Yeah, it's, and it's not, it's like a very ancient food. When, if you go back to the Rome Romans, like in the catacombs, they're like all these like, I don't know, like carvings and like these urns about kale and like the culture kind of work.

You know about this like, like all walked around, right? No. So like all kale, Caesar, 

Margaret: all

I, yeah, 

Preston: I watched, uh, what was the Batman, the guy who acted the Batman movie? Christian Kale. I, 

Margaret: I knew you were gonna love, I was like, you just took Preston's throne for casual pl jokes. Also though, have you heard of the TikTok trend? That is dense beans salad, because that's what I edited your kale salad in the book too.

Dr. Drew Ramsey: I don't know the TikTok [00:03:00] trend. I'm, I'm down with dense beans though. I, I think legumes, beans, lentils in particular, particularly underrated. 

Margaret: So this is a trend for the last year because people will be like, I want a salad. I can bring in my meal prep. But then it gets all wilted. And so the, the trend has been different variations of salads that are more like bean and cruciferous vegetable with some like kale, because kale will not wilt as quickly in it.

And so. The salads then kind of marinate throughout the week instead of being like immediately less good the next day. 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: I'm feeling radicchio for this just because you get the purple Instagram ability in there, but also that same like non wilty feel. Mm-hmm. Um, I'm liking this. I, I. I didn't know about this.

I put white 

Margaret: beans and black beans in my, in, in the one you had. 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: So everybody, that's first of all just a great mix, right? The black beans there, you're gonna get all the bean goodness, right? Which is just quickly, lots of fiber, lots of protein, lots of B vitamins, good amount of magnesium. Uh, [00:04:00] but also mixing the, the black where you get the anthocyanins.

Those are those like white people think blueberries are healthy for your brain is anthocyanins. What make things blue, purple and black in nature. And then the white beans are total sleeper food. People do not eat enough white beans because of the top source of potassium, and we don't really think about potassium.

Really very important nutrient majority of Americans don't meet the recommended daily allowance. You need a ton of potassium in your diet, but none of us know where to find it other than bananas. And so white beans are a super great source. Another amazing source, again, a, a food that oftentimes people are told to avoid.

Potatoes. Potatoes are an amazing food filled with potassium. So, uh, another great thing to put in that bean dense salad, right? When you start talking about, get a little potato in there, get a little bean in there, get a little more protein in that beanie salad, bean dense salad. I like, that's a great idea.

Margaret: Well, what I did is I got wraps that are the, like, I know we want like, fiber from natural sources, but I do like the carb smart wraps that they have at different places that have some fiber in them. So [00:05:00] I'll get a wrap and then I'll put the salad in the wrap. And then I have like Costco, like chicken tender, whatever that you put in there.

So it's like not a perfect all nutrient dense foods, but it is like, I'm getting fiber, I'm getting produce, I'm getting protein. Is there maybe a little bit breaded cooked with oil stuff? Yeah. But I feel like it's, it's hitting most of the boxes for me. So that was what I tried. 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: So that, that's great. I also like this mix of, uh, one, you know, Margaret is a.

A young physician and is doing a lot. And so there's a mix of, what I like that I'm seeing here is a mix of like some meal prep and some effort. We're obviously seeing a lot of nutrient density where you see that mix of vegetables, everyone. I like that a lot. You see rainbows, right? A lot of different colors.

Um, you see easy upgrades here. So I think again, your notion of celebrating things like, wow, this is great. We'd celebrate all these things we're doing. I hear about a few of the, you know, she mentioned crucifixes vegetables. I'd get a little bit more [00:06:00] detail if I were, Margaret was my patient, I'd be kind of writing this all down and trying to get like, along with this, a broad brush stroke of other things she's eating.

She's already done a couple of the easy upgrades, right? When you hear wrap wraps generally aren't very great, but she already knows that she's upgraded to one. And this is where, you know, some parts of modern food in the ultra processed food movement are quite interesting. You know, the notion that now my milkshake has 20 grams of protein in it.

'cause I drop in a scoop of whey protein. Huh? That definitely changes things. Um, so this idea of using a mix of, you know, a little chink and tender, right? There's like a little, uh, there's a little, almost like yummy, like chicken tenders are almost like, I think of, it's one of those like regressive foods.

Like we all kind of go back to childhood a little bit with like chicken tenders, mashed potatoes, spaghetti meatballs. So I like that. And you also see the ways you can vary that, right? Like if we swapped out that chicken tender for white bean salad with arugula and now she has like, um, you know, let's say, uh, a piece [00:07:00] of salmon.

You know, as like a obvious one, right? If she's a fish eater. Um, lot. I did actually, 

Margaret: the other thing I meal prepped was, uh, soyaki salmon bites. So I did actually have that with a side of the salad, so Yeah, you're right on. 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: So, and, and you kind of see where she can like, rotate through some proteins also, you know, where a lot of people might focus on like, oh, the fried food, like, let's not do that.

It's like, eh, I think when you're asking like, how, how do I kind of keep it positive? Is, is I, I wanna look at like what's actually gonna make a difference. 

Margaret: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: And sure. Like, someday you cutting out all of fried food in your diet. Yeah, I guess that's probably better for your health. But like right now, especially as you start to work with somebody and hear about these like, great things they're doing, I find as a clinician you wanna celebrate that.

You wanna see any tips that you can use, you wanna start to create the kind of nutritional like, psychiatry language of that treatment. You know, some of my patients, they joke with me about pesto, you know, other ones have certain foods that have meant a lot to them. Uh, you know, and, and so. Those are [00:08:00] all the things I like about it.

I think for you as a woman, we might also wanna think, we wanna try and increase iron. The beans are okay for that, but if you're a red meat eater, that's a kind of simple thing. When we think about like where nutritional deficiencies really get pretty significant in terms of populations that you just wanna be dialed in as thinking about.

Certainly women are losing iron. Certainly. Your tea. I'm anemic. Okay. So you know I take iron, but I'm 

Margaret: trying to get more, I'm adding spinach. Yeah. And I do eat red meat. 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: Yeah. And, and so, you know what's interesting about iron absorption, uh, mixes, mixtures of heme iron, uh, which is iron from blood. So that's gonna be in any meat that you eat.

The iron's coming from, you know, kind of myoglobin hemoglobin, higher iron proteins. Um, uh, and then mixing that with, um, uh, non-heme iron, which are implant sources. You know, it's a little less absorbable. There's something, uh, about eating meat sources. It's just, it's more available. But mixing them also is, there's some data that's, it's [00:09:00] quite helpful.

And so, um, yeah, if Margaret were a patient, I'd be thinking about high iron foods. Um, I, I'd wanna not like, be oppressive, right? That she's gotta get the iron up quickly, but you're kind of filing iron stores over time. Um. Yep. That's, uh, and you're looking then in little moments like this, like how can you increase it?

Like what about more, like, what else has a little iron? Like can we throw some pumpkin seeds in that salad? Like, um, uh, you know, it's, uh, I think clams actually are a great source of iron, so a little pasta olli would be on my recommendation list. Um, 

Margaret: yeah, I, I've been actively trying to add more seafood and then made a kale salad this week.

That was my two I was working on from the book this week after reading it. 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: Also, since we're talking about the books. Um, one of the things I did in, in all of these books in Eat Beat Depression and Anxiety, I, I created, uh, with an illustrator a bunch of different kinda illustrations about the [00:10:00] nutrients.

Here's B12 and vitamin C. And the idea behind this was just to, to give us all, uh, more of that information I was talking about earlier on the podcast that, you know, uh, here, like the top sources of vitamin C. Well, you know, uh, bell peppers have 157% of your daily vitamin C just in one cup, right? Or Brussels sprouts have 125% in just one cup.

I mean, that's not very many Brussels sprouts strawberries, 113%. So just, you know, getting those dialed in as like, Hey, these are top. Vitamin C or B12, right? Meat, a particularly great source of B12 are gonna be your bivalves muscles, clams and oysters. Clams gonna be your top food for B12 with 1402% mm-hmm.

Of your daily need of B12 in three ounces of clams. So each of B depression, anxiety, tried to address that and then, and eat complete. This is a, a cookbook and it goes through 21 nutrients. And with each one we list the top food sources. I list kind of preparation tips. So for example, if [00:11:00] you're low on iron, like what do we want Margaret cooking in.

A 

Margaret: cast iron, 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: cast iron 

Margaret: skillet. 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: Right? Because cast iron skillet are gonna add iron all the time. Any vegetable you're sauteing in there, you're gonna get more iron in it. Um, and, and so thinking about and incomplete, what were the 21 most important nutrients? Uh, so we were able to add in some stuff like fermented foods and, and a more robust set of nutrients, things like selenium.

Whereas in eat beach depression, anxiety, we focused on the foods that were, I did a, a very small, uh, paper, a little study called the. Antidepressant food scale, which really seeks to answer a question, what are the most important nutrients? Uh, this is like 2018 publication. So there's data according up to then what are the most important nutrients for depression in terms of preventing it and treating it, and what foods have the most of those nutrients, those 12 nutrients per calorie.

And so it's one of the reasons, again, the bivalves come out very, very high. Leafy greens, cruciferous vegetables come out very, very high. Water [00:12:00] crest is actually the top. 

Margaret: What I really liked in the book is like, it kind of feels, makes eating feel like a game in some ways. Like a po again, it's a more of this like positive lens of it, um, that.

It feels like, and I'm gonna ask our editors to see if they can put this in. There's like a part in the show Parks and Rec where Andy is like, do you know where calories go? Their energy. And then he, like, he's a character on Parks and Rec, and he like punches and he is like, boom, that was my like, sushi, like, boom.

So when I eat now, after reading these books, I'm like, that's gonna help my brain do this. Like when I eat it. Which is, I think is, I mean, such a positive view of eating in instead of kind of like scare tactics. 

Preston: Well now that we have all this, these positive views of eating, let's go through what press and ate.

Okay, here we go. And I was just like, I was like, oh my God, as you're like trashing on all these supplements, I'm like, huh? Like, look at my diet. Let's, here, let's just be unbiased. Let's 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: hear, let's hear what's, what's, you know, you seem [00:13:00] serious about your health. 

Preston: And it's on paper. So I can't, I can't, um, change it in any way.

So I divided into breakfast and morning snacks, lunch. Okay. And dinner and evening snacks. So just to kick us off, uh, for breakfast, I had two Kodiak protein oatmeal packets, so, okay. Basically it's 12 grams of protein per packet. They're like enhanced, I guess. Okay. And then I had a, because that wasn't enough, I had a, a scoop of whey protein mix in water and I just drank it.

I'm, I'm judging, 

Margaret: I'm just picturing it. 

Preston: Is it a chocolate flavored one or is it just like, it's vanilla flavored, actually. Vanilla. Vanilla. And there's, it has extra leucine in it. 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: Uhhuh. And do you wanna share with everybody how this helps you fit in at the gym? 

Preston: Oh, so, I mean, in theory, leucine has a more anabolic function when it binds to the mTOR pathway or the mammalian t or receptor pathway.

So it, so compared to other [00:14:00] branch chain amino acids, it may have more of a hormonal interaction with. Muscle protein synthesis. So, so if you put a higher concentration of leucine in your whey protein, you can get more jacked, basically. And then I also, um, I mix in creatine in my whey protein scoop every time 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: by fitting outside what you, what you shared with me about your gym trip in the morning and how the bathroom kind of smells of whe protein.

How, yeah. I never thought about that, know, but it, it's kind of stayed with me. Preston. Yes. It's like, uh, 

Preston: smell the gym bathroom. Yes. You like smell the WHE protein in the Yeah, you can. That's what he said. I was like, I'm contributing to the nuclear fallout there. Hold on. So let's take 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: a scoop away. Proteins about 20 grams.

So you're ending breakfast with like 44. Sorry, let me, lemme take my neutral tone. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Because I'm so Preston, I was trying to get, okay, lemme just make sure I'm getting this breakfast right. So, wow. It looks like there's about like 44 grams of protein, like two [00:15:00] Kodiak meals. Anything else that you eat for your breakfast?

Preston: Yeah. So on the way to work, I drink Ancos protein yogurt drink, which has 23 grams of protein. It is 140 calories. So we're getting to work at 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: like 19 9:00 AM 8:00 AM and we're at, uh, yeah, um, 77 grams of protein. 

Preston: And then I sat down to pre char on some consults. This is a diary from when I was still in the consult service and I had two mamba candy sticks, which are, they're like, kinda like Tootsie rolls, but a little bit longer.

Dr. Drew Ramsey: Mm-hmm. Do they have any protein in them? No. Okay. They're 

Preston: 44. 44 carbs and two grams of fat. 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: Okay. It's like Mamba boy. It's a protein mamba stick. That'll be like, no, it's just, sorry. Just you had a little candy. It was mama 

Margaret: stick. Yeah. 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: Those like, do you had a 

Preston: little like sweet treat. Okay. What's next? Okay, so and then at some point for the rest of the morning, um, I had a Kodiak granola bar and that was seven grams of protein in it.

Okay. Maybe when I was gonna [00:16:00] see a consult or something. So now, now we're around like noon or 1:00 PM and it's time for lunch. So I had, I brought one of those like microwave meals, like a pre-made refrigerated meal from HEB. It's a stuffed chicken cordon blue, and that has, it's basically just like breaded chicken, ham cheese, and I think they have like a, a couple green beans mixed into the thing there too.

So that had 420 calories and 43 grams of protein. Okay. And then I had 33 grams of cashews and that, I weighed that out. 33 grams 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: of cashews. How many cashews is that? Like I weighed 

Preston: out because that's, that's what is like one serving size on the bag. So I just weighed out one serving and then put it in like a Ziploc bag for the day.

Then I had one green apple that was 150 grams. I'm sorry, the, the 33 grams of cashews, [00:17:00] how much protein did those have? Oh, they had five grams of protein. Okay. And there was zero protein in the green apple. Yep. Until, until cent invent protein enhanced green apples. Finally a good use of GMOs. Am I right?

Okay, so moving on after that, we have raw carrots. I had 325 grams of raw carrots. 

Margaret: You measured your carrots? 

Preston: Yeah. 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: 3 25 grams of carrots. There's like 12 

Margaret: calories ins. 

Preston: So that was a, that was actually 130 calories for the whole thing. Okay. It was like, it was like a, a mounded bowl of carrots, Uhhuh, it's really good.

Um, and that had three grams of protein in it. 

Margaret: Mm-hmm. 

Preston: And then I had three Charlie ranchers. 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: Okay. Margaret, you have some thoughts on why he's craving so much sweets? 

Margaret: He, he, uh, a psychoanalytically or neurobiologically? [00:18:00] 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: Well, I mean, uh, e either one. I guess I was, uh, 

Margaret: uh, he hasn't had any carb. I mean, he's had pretty minimal carbs.

He's mostly had high protein things. I mean, like, I know Jim talk loves to talk about like protein to calorie ratio, but 

Preston: Yeah, I think 

Margaret: not a lot of carbs. Not a lot of fiber so far. So your brain's probably kinda like, what the hell 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: there, there's, there's some idea about, um, you know, the, the challenge in the brain and there's a lot of proteins.

I'm not sure how the body's sensing that is getting enough tryptophan that, you know, it competes with the large neutral amino acids for transport into the brain. And so there, there's, I I've read and I'm, I don't think we know for sure, but the part of that like kind of dessert carved craving, sweet craving is that in doing that, the, um.

Large, neutral amino acids get, uh, pulled into muscle more preferentially, leaving a little bit more tryptophan and a ratio so you get more tryptophan transported into the brain. It'd be interesting if anybody knows whether that's entirely true or not, [00:19:00] but I I wonder if part of the sweetness is when you just like pre charting, so like, you know, you need, you need a little sweet treat.

Preston: Yeah. There's like a, there's like a bowl of candy that like lives in that work room and it's always like full to the top, so it's just like mm-hmm. It's, it's like constant temptation, I guess. So you fight it, you, you're the workday for 10 hours, right? And you fight the temptation for seven hours, then you're just like, okay, I'll have a Jolly Rancher.

Dr. Drew Ramsey: This is why Preston can't do psychoanalytic training. Margaret is, he'll come to understand what the bowl of candy comes to represent and it's just gonna be a little disturbing for him in the pre chart room. 

Margaret: I feel like I've heard a lot of rds though talk about some of this, like the mythology around like sugar and the brain and stuff and, and I'm not talking about like keto diets for different, like for epilepsy or anything like that.

But this idea that, and maybe you can speak to this, that like that the brain's preferential source or the first use source is, tends to be carbs. So when you. For sure don't. Right. So when you, when you have, are [00:20:00] low in that, do you feel like that increases people's craving for I think that's maybe you said that and I just didn't understand the whole neuro you were saying, you know, I think 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: for, for some people, for sure, you're gonna get a lot of carb craving, I think people who have, you know, sweet and carb heavy diets, you know, certainly, and I think some people, like all kind of symptoms, you know, struggle much more with that than others.

Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, you know, I, I think that the, the general concern about rds, uh, I is around how carbs have been demonized that yes, you know, the majority of brains on the planet are running on glucose and most of those brains are doing okay. Some of them are certainly struggling with mental health, but like, uh, the sort of notion of excess sugar, which is really the problem with our diets, right?

That as you have a carb heavy and refined carb heavy diet, you end up having a lot of insulin and a lot of fat storage. And that creates, uh. A lot of health challenges and there's something kind of very simple about that model that somehow carbs became awful. [00:21:00] And the notion that wow, carbs are really essential.

'cause carbs are also like fibers. The long chain of carbs, there's like avocados, nuts, I don't know, berries. There's a lot of things where it's like, huh, those are black beans, right? These are all sources of carbs, potatoes, and you know, some of, some of the healthier foods we have that have really gotten quite twisted, right?

If you ask a lot of people like, what's the least healthy foods? Like the potato. And it's like, well that's 'cause we're eating french fries and potato chips. So it's like mm-hmm. Demonizing the spud without, uh, being really fair. So. 

Margaret: Also just to say, just to say it out loud, Preston, there is a part, not anymore, not contemporary psychoanalysis, but there is definitely a part of psychodynamic that would say, you did not get enough breast milk in mother's love.

And that's why you crave sweets. Margaret, 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: you, he's like, you're not, I mean, there's not, that's a strong interpretation for a podcast. I, I would 

Margaret: say that or the modern straight say that. But there is something in, there is literature where people talk about the representation of sweetness. Uh 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: oh, [00:22:00] for sure.

Sweetness, comfort. Yeah. We, we joke about the milkshake at my house. Every, like, anytime you make one, it's like, you know, we need my internet. Need some need A little mama. Um, Preston, we didn't get to dinner after the Jelly Ranchers, by the way. We also don't hear how you're feeling or anything that you're drinking other than the ose yogurt chic.

Preston: Uh, so it was all just water throughout the day. 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: No caffeine source in the morning. 

Preston: Oh. Um. I guess not, which is strange on this body. Well, usually because I, I usually do have a caffeine source in the morning I make a whole milk latte with two ounces of espresso and six ounces of whole milk has, and then I'll have one pump of lavender syrup and then maybe like one teaspoon of honey mixed in.

Margaret: Hmm. 

Preston: So, so it's around like a hundred, I wanna say 150 calories, six grams of protein. Yeah. So, so, you know, this is a interesting, um, 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: [00:23:00] also just, uh, probably from Margaret's perspective, being in the kind of eating disorder world, right? It's nice, it's not super common to see a, a man kind of with this much weighing, right.

I think it also feeds into that great idea that you shared Preston about how there is a kind of new masculine value, I guess it's an old masculine value, but like this masculine value of discipline. And like, you know, you're showing this kind of rigor, right? If you're weighing it out. Is this part of like, marathon training for you, that you have nutritional standards?

I'm just kind of wondering when, when you were started being this like kind of diligent. 

Preston: Yeah. So in about like after the marathon, I guess, um, I had this, we're really tackling press in and how he feels about himself right now. But basically I was like, you know, I feel like I'm kind of heavy and I hate how hot it is in San Antonio.

So I was like, I wanna see what cutting is like. So I, so I went through like a three month just being non-suicidal behavior. [00:24:00] Getting cut or You mean like cutting things out? Getting cut, yeah. So basically I was working out like. I was lifting probably three or four times a week during this time. And then to maintain muscle mass, I was hoping to get like 180 grams of protein in per day, which is why everything was like really emphasizing the amount of protein I was getting because I felt like I just didn't, my caloric goals were between like 25 to 2,500 to 3000 a day, and this one actually ended up going a little bit higher.

Um, but I, I found myself being like, if I wanna like stay within the calorie range and also hit 180 grams of protein per day, I really need protein dense foods. 'cause if I just have like a bagel or something, those like 300 calories, it just starts to run away from you really fast with the amount of calories that you're, you're getting throughout the day.

So that, so this was just a period of time where I, I was kind of curious about it. I wanted to see if I could lose [00:25:00] weight and or lose fat without, while retaining muscle and. It was kind of miserable, honestly. Like I, I remember I was more irritable during the day. Like I would snap more on people. I'd be like, whoa, that's not usually like me.

You know? Uh, my like, tolerance for frustration would go down and I would like, get tired in the evening. Like, I would just kind of wanna like eat, sleep for dinner. It was almost like I didn't have like, enough fuel to like, keep my brain going, so I just wanted to go to sleep. So I, I kind of like, I was like, this sucks.

So then I corrected. I, I still weigh things sometimes, but it's really just if I want to get an idea of a portion, but I don't like track this judiciously all the time now because I, I, I really had to take a moment to be like, this is like not fun, 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: you know? You know, that's actually a very good principle also for everybody listening to be thinking about, you know, as you're kind of pondering your diet and, and maybe how nutritional psychiatry principles [00:26:00] apply to you.

The fun quotient doesn't really get emphasized or in American culture and western culture is when we think about fun, we often think about gluttony. You know, fun is double dessert, you know? Fun, fun. It can also be like making a great vegetable stir fry with your family or your friends. Like fun can also be, mm-hmm like trying out a really great seafood restaurant because you don't like cooking seafood at home.

But it's a great brain food. Um, and I think these types of things, what I love about this, again, to emphasize the positive is, you know, first of all, if Preston were a patient, you, you begin to see some of his great strengths, right? You see a little obsessional, you see him weighing, you see him caring, you see course correction.

Ah, I ran this marathon, but boy, I don't really love where my body is. Um, so those are all great strengths we'd wanna emphasize. And then you see this great opportunity that he is super miserable and he's miserable, in part because there's no soul in his food. Just to speak frankly, Preston, since you're not a patient, right there, there's a, it is like he's trying to eat healthy, but he is, all of it's processed food.

All of [00:27:00] it's actually ultra processed food, whether it's granola bar or the yogurt drink. And what's interesting is it's a lot of time and energy and money, uh, and, and, but the main thing he's getting is protein. And, and so working with a patient like Preston, if you were a patient, right? Mm-hmm. You'd be wanting to think about, okay, what's, what are the some great whole foods?

I got carrots. We got a green apple. We didn't actually get to dinner. Preston, what 

Preston: was 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: dinner? 

Preston: So dinner I had, um, Turkey chili that was about 500 grams altogether. I actually made that myself. So I used lean ground Turkey and I mixed it in with tomato sauce and like crushed tomatoes and bell peppers and onions and I can't think of any other vegetables that I put in there.

Dr. Drew Ramsey: Was that any like better of an eating experience or was that kind of Yeah, it was 

Preston: actually, it was good. I really, I liked it a lot. I got it. I, I went on like the New York Times cooking app and they had like a Turkey chili recipe and [00:28:00] I like downloaded it and then I like ordered everything on HEB through that.

And then I just like went and picked up the groceries and then went home and made it and it was fun. 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: Yeah. There's a way, it's also, it's a nice way to unwind. I think it's also a great, um mm-hmm. As listening professionals. Some of the things that people unwind to, like books on tape or podcasts, I find a little, uh, challenging, no offense to this podcast, just that hear a lot of words all day.

Yeah. And I find like I, I kind, I kind of like, I need a, a really still space, but I need to be doing something. 'cause if I just sit, I'm gonna kind of like float in people's process. And so I find the, the chopping, the making, the producing something. I do a lot of like yard work as well, where just like, it, it, it, it has a beginning, a middle, and an end.

It has certain things to do that I'm, you know, I've been doing a long time and I'm, I'm good at it that are very concrete. And so 

Margaret: I feel like to, not to speak for you Preston, but I'm going to like, with making coffee, like you so love the [00:29:00] ritual of it and kind of, I think the sensuality of it. And I think hearing your routine otherwise that, like, you do have that strength and I think the, like, draw to it, but it's not, it doesn't get to be as present.

Other parts of your food rituals and routines, but it sounds like it was more there with like making like the Turkey chili. Mm-hmm. I just, I know how excited you get about the like coffee making process and where do things come from and like have a lot of joy about that. And so I feel like it's there for you and you have that, whereas I think some people don't have that about food as much.

I think a lot of people do, but like you have that in droves as a strength. 

Preston: I think you've given space. I could have it a lot more. So the, the context is not given here is that, um, you know, I was on a consult service where, you know, you have to be into work at 7:00 AM so I'm not like, that's why having like fast ready oatmeal in the morning, I'm not like taking the time to, you know, slowly smear my, like [00:30:00] avocado on my toast and you know, sprinkle Rose Mary on it.

I'm just like, I need to get something and get out the door. And then you get home and it's like 6:00 PM or something. And you're like, okay, now I have a little bit of time to like make something. And I think this was something I made on the weekend and I was just heating up in the microwave. But like the, the soullessness of my food, which I do acknowledge a lot of, like, just came from like how little space I felt like I had to like, enjoy this food.

Because the other thing is all this that I was eating either for breakfast or for lunch was in front of a computer while I was working. Mm-hmm. Yeah. There's a part of my day where I was like, this is me and food, except for maybe a little bit during dinner, you know, otherwise push. It's like little, 

Margaret: I'm gonna push you a little bit.

As someone who's also in residency and has been on consults that like, it would have to be a priority and you would have to actively push it. But I'm gonna push against you saying like that. There's no time to take 15 minutes away from the computer. 

Preston: You're right. There is, there is time. [00:31:00] And so like I do have the ability, and I did, I did eat lunch sometimes where I was like, I'm not gonna be at the computer.

I'm just gonna go find a window. Like a little plant, like get some sunlight so I can feel like a, an organism that like exists on a planet and, and I'm not just some like wilted flower stuck in a windowless room so I can drove over the EHR again. 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: I wonder if some of this also, you're bringing a good point of that.

Some of this is around like, you know, we call it stress eating. Like it's all bad, but you know, if, if Preston is dealing with some stress by going and finding some sunlight and eating his little bag of carrots. That's super healthy, especially when you're in an inpatient hospital setting. Uh, consult service for most people will say maybe no, but it, it's, it's taking care of the psychiatric aspects of patients who are hospitalized.

So people, for example, who are getting a cancer treatment and get psychotic, or people who have steroids and get manic and can't sleep like they call Preston. So you [00:32:00] get called into these really, really complex, often very high stake situation and, you know, you're in training and so it's very stressful.

It's, it's. Being in a performative stance and really needing to perform at kind of the top of your license. You need to have all of this medical knowledge. You need to have all of your best like patient skills and staff interaction skills out. 'cause you're being evaluated all the time. Just to give a little insight to what these two are dealing with.

And so, you know, as you look through this, I think it, it, Preston, it's also really important that you give us the context. You're not just chasing, you know, um, like lots of protein and eating lots of processed food. You're doing your best to stay nourished and get a lot of protein when you're on a very busy service.

Mm-hmm. And, um, and the pushback program, I think that's your clin clinical like, sense of like, you know, could, could you do better though? It's like, could it, could it be a little more like, it's, um, it's a little hummingbird, right? You can see you're not, you're not getting satiated. It's where [00:33:00] like, Margaret's breast milk candy interpretation is a little interesting if you think about some of that as around nourishment and satiation, right?

You eat and you're good for a while. And, and then you eat again and you're good for a while. And so I think there's in some ways, like a healthy emotional eating going on in this dietary pattern, right where we're seeing you. Mm-hmm. Which I think is very common in, in training for physicians where you get a break, what do you do on that break?

You eat? And, and ideally it's something that's healthy, but more importantly is that it, it feels good. It goes down quickly. You can eat it while you're in front of a computer. You know, it's where upgrading snacks, really the nuts. Like I love the cashews. 'cause I think raw and salted nuts, like great to have in your lab coat or your doctor's coats.

Um, the fresh fruit, it's not 

Margaret: bad. Or salted nuts because I'm not gonna lie to you. 

Preston: I think salter nuts are better than, no nuts. 

Margaret: Alright, I'm working on it. 

Preston: I love pumpkin seeds, pistachios, and cashews. 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: Yeah. This is like a perfect mix. Some mix of salt mix and, and again, in these [00:34:00] kind of vegetable and plant-based recommendations, we're also looking for diversity.

Everyone like I, you know, I, it's great you eat almonds, right? And almond butter. It's also, but like, I'm kind of curious, can you like, like Preston right? Have some more seeds in their pumpkin seeds are total sleeper food. Like this is like top source, great source of zinc, magnesium, iron. Um, really again, good, inexpensive.

So it goes on lots of stuff blends up in your pesto. I put pumpkin seeds in my omelet. It goes in this great salad of Margarets with the beans. Um, so mixing, getting, be sort of diversity in your plant foods is super important. 

Margaret: I feel like that's like one of the creative and fun parts of this kind of stuff where it's like.

The I'll like be walking through Trader Joe's and I'm like, I'm gonna get a sweet potato and a regular potato and I'm gonna get this vegetable and this green. And like this is what the recipe I'm trying this week is like an expression of creativity and just novelty. That trying to change your dietary pattern can represent of not just like [00:35:00] just caring about the physicality of your health with nutrition, but also the like, I feel like so many people talk about in adulthood and in medical training specifically losing access to creativity and some of that we can't help because of time and training, but some of it can be like, I'm gonna make a new salad this week that I've never made before and I might hate it or I might love it.

And like that novelty expanding your life experience in addition to being maybe better for your mental health. 

Preston: Yeah, being intentional about diversity is so like important. I took a a class on nutritional medicine, I guess it wasn't psychiatry at the time in med school. And we had a registered dietician talk to us.

She point back blank, said like, people eat the same stuff every day. They think they eat different things, but they don't really, people just kind of eat the same things and, and like, you know, you, you echo that already, drew and, and I, I think about that a lot when I'm at the grocery store. I'm like, I eat the same thing all the time.

And then, so then it made me like intentional about switching it up. I used to [00:36:00] only like pistachios and then I was like, you know what? Let's try a new nut. I always eat the same nuts. Let's try another new nut. Okay, now, now I've got a rotation going. 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: Yeah. And you got a little more like hedonism and dopamine going right, because of those nuts.

Mm-hmm. Like they're different. You like, I, I just had a big handful of pistachios. Love it. Like I'll do a scoop of peanut butter oftentimes between patients just 'cause I don't know. It's, it's a, it's a nice satiating thing for me, but yeah, it's a, it. Margaret, I, I would push back on the, you know, idea of we're gonna lose some of it.

Because I would say one of the things that we're understanding more and more about medical training and about physicians in America is we're killing their creativity. And it's really, really bad for us. I would say one of the things I'm, I'm against the, I know you're against it. I just think this idea that we can't exist in institutions that don't allow us to be creative people, because all medical problems require, all [00:37:00] require medic uh, creative problem solving, right?

Whether it's in how you're forming the alliance or how you're delivering the news, or that no one's figured out what it is. Um, there, there's just a lot of creativity and, and medicine. I, I, I, I treat a few surgeons. You know, it's thought of as a very concrete feel, but then you get to hear sort of the inner workings of how nuanced and creative it is, the solutions that they're coming up with to kind of put things back together again and, and heal people.

So yeah, keeping your creativity is, is really essential. Um, I think it's one of the things I feel really blessed about in my career in terms of getting to do some, uh, media work and getting to be kind of early in social media, getting to do the books. Um, but then it's, it's funny we're talking about this, my analyst gimme this interpretation today.

My analyst is like 84 now. 82. 82 now. And, uh, it's gonna be a little supervision around a kind of complex situation I'm in clinically. But he is, he's kind of really [00:38:00] emphasizing that my joy of the clinical work comes from how it's creative. I was, I was worried I was getting a little too, like, almost like loose and, and fun with the patient and he's kind of noting that it was.

Sort of part of what I do is this really, uh, deep push I take in people's creativity and almost the improvisational nature of psychotherapy, that it's unlike other jobs that, you know, I people show up and you, you really have no idea what people are gonna talk about often. Yeah. Um, it's that it's that great, uh, uh, quote.

I'm sure that every, uh, the, the beyond quote, you should start each session with no memory and no 

Margaret: desire. Yeah. 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: Right. That we've all been kind of trained on. And the idea behind that is that really, it's a patient led endeavor. And while I might think like, Ooh, we're gonna get in juicy about like, boyfriend issues, or like, oh, we're gonna talk about your mom again, we were all about her last time.

It's like, no, you, you come in and like you, you had a dream that I never even considered. Right. Uh, [00:39:00] or, uh, um, you know, you, you, you, you are talking about, you know, uh, suddenly we're back in eighth grade. And like, uh, I'm, I'm sitting in some elementary school with you listening to like this really powerful thing that happened to you.

And so it's, uh, yeah, the creative part of that and inviting that with patients I think is, is huge. And I, and I like how I pick up a nutritional psychiatry, like using the grocery store as a litmus test. If I walk into the grocery store and I've got this ceiling Margaret's talking about, I'm like, Ooh, arugula, ooh, who's had watercress?

Like, oh wow. Like, let's make, you know, let's add another color in. I know my mental health, my mental fitness are in a good spot when I walk in and I'm oppressed, I'm bored, I'm fatigued. I'm unlike meal, 20,000 for my kids. And you know, like, ugh, say I 

Margaret: don't have kids. So that, I went to the grocery store with kid, my niece and nephews a couple weeks ago and I was like, this is a different experience.

So I'll say that. 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: It is, it's, it's a real cha. I mean, it, it's, you know, lots of kids have great palate. We call it good grom. Um, and then, you know, a [00:40:00] lot of, I was a very picky eater. Uh, I think, um, um, actually the, the chef, um, uh, Carolyn Chambers, who did the recipes for eat to beat depression and anxiety, um, is now like a top New York Times bestselling chef.

But she has, I think she's in that four children now. Mm-hmm. And when she was writing the book, uh, recipe, she was pregnant with her third child. And, and she really writes about this, how being a chef and being a mom is so challenging because when she'll put a lot of time and investment into something, and then the kids, you know, like rejected.

And she said at first it was really like, kind of crushing her, you know, like, yeah, wait, yeah. I made these lamb chops. Like, for you, like, there's like a family recipe and, and Oh yeah. She, 

Margaret: she has the big substack though, what to cook when you don't feel like cooking. 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: Yeah, she, I mean, Caroline, she's incredible.

She has the, I think it's the top recipe. It's the top recipe, Substack, and yes, I get to work does with her, um, around, uh, Nutri early nutritional psychiatry, this sort of, you know, um, nutritional psychiatry bookie to be [00:41:00] depression and anxiety of, of really this goal of, Hey, I want the recipes to be delicious.

And she's known for these like really simple but comforting, delicious recipes. But she also was like really diligent in learning all of the aspects of nutritional psychiatry. And so she came back with these recipes that were just like, I mean, they're really showstopping, uh, whether it's like the Chocolate avocado MOUs or some of the salads are just like really creative.

So it's a, it's a, a fun book. And she was really, yeah, she blew up after that. And so it was really fun. Anytime you're working with somebody and they have great success, it's just really fun to sort of know them and see them grinding and then see them really take off. So yeah, she's great. 

Margaret: Any, any last bits of wisdom for us or other trainees listening on feeding ourselves based on what you've heard about our lives, um, and also knowing, I know you work in private practice now, but you also help and mentor a lot of trainees, so just taking care of [00:42:00] themselves from the food perspective or you know, wisdom you wish you had from healing the modern brain for people who are in medical school residency, fellowship.

Dr. Drew Ramsey: Well, I, I, boy, um, I, thanks for that question. Um, I, I think some of the things that have helped me have, uh, a really like fun career so far is focusing on things that I like. I really always like listening to patients. I like the creative process. I like a little bit of like the looseness of, of therapy process, although people don't like that, you know, like things that are, uh, and so like paying attention to that.

Um, I, I think working your way through the hierarchy is really imp important for everyone in healthcare, uh, in the, in the sense that we spend a lot of time being scrutinized, being tested. It's funny, I'm preparing for my board recertification exam and it's kind of like, it's amusing to me. I think it's probably the last test that I'll take because they've moved to this like article based recertification.

Mm-hmm. It might be like the last test I take in my career and. [00:43:00] I sitting at that was really interesting, uh, kind of revisiting that med school and resident feeling of like all this obscure detail. And it's really strange kind of mid career to be seeing the amount of things we're tested on and quizzed on and factoids.

We need to know that I've, I've literally never heard of or seen in clinical practice. And then some of the most important issues, it's actually a kind of critique I have of our board certification. The most important issue right now, probably, which would be metabolic syndrome induced by our medicines, would be understanding more about SSRI efficacy and, and how to respond to public concerns about those, uh, nutritional psychiatry.

TMS like, I dunno, last time I did recertification, I had zero questions on any of those topics. And so, uh, but work your way through the hierarchy. Get to a spot of confidence. Understand the healer that you are. Um, understand there's a lot of learning post-training. Um, that's really fun and exciting. Um, [00:44:00] and then in terms of self-care, it's a great question.

I like Preston's point, which is like, eat what you can when you can and try and pay attention to it. Uh, which I think is kind of your take home. Like, Hey, I'm trying to do better. I'm trying to eat more protein. Yeah, guys is processed food. I'm on cl like I'm in the hospital like 70 hours a week. And I think it's a great example of, you know, you see he's bringing food from home, like how many guy residents listening or bringing food from home?

Some of you, but I didn't do that. Preston's doing a better job than I did. So, um, focusing on some of these principles we talked about, like, uh, the idea of nutrient density, right? You go to the hospital cafeteria, there are things that are better for you than other things. And I think Margaret, your point of like, we're not trying to induce an eating disorder or orthorexia, but I do want you to know that leafy greens are always gonna have more nutrients per calories, um, than a soda or, you know, always gonna be a better choice for you than, uh, I don't know, like some iceberg lettuce with a little bit of [00:45:00] like bad cheese in an old tomato, even though sometimes when you're in a hospital, that's your best choice.

Margaret: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: Um, uh, and then I would say the other part is, and it's really important, like kind of in late training and after training, like where it is that you're gonna understand the self. If you're not in therapy. And good thing about being a psychiatrist generally is there's a lot of push in training that you should get treatment In New York at Columbia, it's like, you know, if you didn't go to psychotherapy at least a couple times a week, like you weren't really serious about this job.

And, and so, you know, for us in psychiatry, it's a little, it's kind of expected you're gonna do a reasonable amount of psychotherapy. Um, in other fields, not so much. Right. It's kind of, as you were saying about, uh, military population, Preston, there's a lot of hesitation of like, well, what does this mean? Do I have to report this?

Will this kind of impede my success in academia? But having a spot, whether it's your journal, whether it's a therapist, whether it's a trusted mentor to kind of be processing like where you're [00:46:00] going and, um, what you're developing. I think that's, that's been very, very helpful to me. Uh, keeping good structured, creative outlets.

Like, uh, Preston, you brought up like a soccer league, which I think is, um, important. Um, uh, to, to just get that on the schedule. Maybe you miss, but like, if, you know, Thursday night is your pick up this game, or your pottery group or a cooking class, Margaret mentioned. I I love that structure. I talk with patients all the time about the framework, right?

We both have the treatment framework, but there's that, like your framework of your week of, uh, like I've, I've had a tennis lesson, 8:00 AM every Tuesday this summer. My game is in a place that's never been before in my life. I am so happy. It's so good for my mental health, so good for my male confidence, middle life to be like, oh, you know, still, still got some moves here.

Still can learn, um, still can focus my mind like, okay, and, and so I'm, I'm big about having structure with your, I'm big on having structure with your life, kind of outside of [00:47:00] our medical world because it's so structured inside. We're so used to that busy grind. I, I call 'em afterschool activities.

Margaret: Afterschool activities, right. Yeah. 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: Super important. And then I, I probably shouldn't skip over it 'cause it's my phone's just ringing with my wife calling me. That, that's definitely been, for me, a, a very central part of, um. I'll call it success, but having, um, fulfillment is, is having a, a partner that understands something about what I do is really supportive in that really holds me to a very high standard, uh, around my professionalism, my hygiene, um, uh, you know, it just, um, really, uh, taking some pride in being a physician and, and caring deeply about what I do and my patients.

And so, um, you know, not, not everybody is wired that way as needy, dependent, and fragile as I am. But if you are wired like me, having a, a, a very active, caring, loving partner and, and [00:48:00] really prioritizing the building of that, you know, a lot of people these days I find, you know, it's about the fit. Like, you have the same hobbies, you like the same bands, and like, uh, that's not where love comes from.

That helps a, a little bit, I guess, but you know. A really deep commitment between people is this co-created process. I mean, all of you listening, you have it know about it. So that, that, that's another very important aspect of, um, maintaining that. 'cause eventually your career will wind down or come to a close, or suddenly it'll be in your mid fifties and you'll be like, oh, whoa, whoa, wow.

And, and you start thinking about things like your kid's going away or I don't know. You're realizing there's this phase called grandparent. Like I had this happen to me. It was, uh, one of our colleagues, probably one of the bigger like minds, uh, computational psychiatrist plus, um, a computational s uh, scientist, um, plus psychiatrist, uh, who's really, anyway, he was here, was this baby.

And I was like, holding this [00:49:00] baby. And I had this feeling I've never had before. If my brain was like, are you my grandchild? I was like, are you my grand baby? I was like, you're so, I was like, I'd never had that feeling before. Like, ever like, like, ooh. So, yeah, those are all the things that I would advise you to remember.

It's a, remember, it's a long career. And then I guess the last thing we should say is this physician is, you gotta get really clear, uh, that you're not gonna die by suicide. And I, I think particularly male physicians, uh, watching who are in their late forties and early fifties, you, you are the highest risk group for suicide and a lot of you will have those thoughts and feelings as things change as you hit andropause like I have.

And it's really, really to know that risk about our field. You're gonna give and give and give. And if you do not take care of yourself, you are going to be at immense risk for suicide. We are the number one profession at risk for suicide. So I think it's important for the three of us as [00:50:00] psychiatrists, especially for our colleagues not in psychiatry, to remind people of that.

I don't mean to end with a stern warning, but you shouldn't enter the field unless you know about that and take it seriously. It is a hazard to your health if you're not careful. So I think that's very, very important of taking exceptionally good care of your mental health. I, um, I tell my patients all the time when they're involved in high stress things, it's like.

Thoroughbred race horses have a very specific care regimen because they're running so fast and they're performing at such a high level. And so for healthcare colleagues, physicians, nurse practitioners, nurses, anybody's in that kind of clinical care space, really, really important to get your mental fitness really dialed in at all stages of your career.

It can't like wait till you have more free time. 

Margaret: Preston, do you have any final questions? 

Preston: Oh, well, thank you. I, I'll do my best to find balance and not kill myself.

Dr. Drew Ramsey: That's good. Preston, I think we got a little [00:51:00] more specific with you than the broad brush at the end, which is around. Continuing your exploration of highly processed foods, but wondering where the easy moves are. For example, like you like the oatmeal, right? With a lot of protein. I, I think, um, one of the guys I trained with, his breakfast every morning was, uh, like oatmeal, plain oatmeal with a big scoop of chocolate protein powder in there.

And, and so, you know, in some ways that's what you're doing and you're doing a quick and easy version that's like very good for students. And so I think that mostly you're to be commended for caring. And then I am wondering what would say you, what would really like fill you up in a 

Preston: way? Yeah. Recently I, I've pivoted to non-fat Greek yogurt with blueberries, raspberries, and blackberries.

And then some granola 

Margaret: girl, let yourself have some fat. Sorry. Because 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: he's worried, he's worried about the calories. He, it's because he's focused. Yeah. I think you're also one of these, I'm really [00:52:00] curious to see whether there's a way that like. I've wondered with the psychedelic movement, whether Michael Pollen has really done a number to our mental health, that he's kind of unleashed something in a way that he didn't expect.

And it's, it's really, as we look back, gonna be a very, um, damaging movement. And, you know, I kind of, which is maybe a little controversial it'll say, but I also wonder the same thing with the protein, right? There's such an emphasis right now, kind of say, driven by a few of our influencers, right? That it's all about eating more protein and getting bigger muscles and that's how you age.

Well, and you know, if you talk to people in the nutrition space, they say in general, men are eating too much protein, even before this messaging got out. And so. You know, for you, I wonder if there are other kind of macronutrients or, or micronutrients or nutrient density things to pay attention to, right?

Like there's no real launching Omega-3 fats in your diet. There's, boy, I feel like [00:53:00] I'm scolding you, Preston. This isn't the clinical thing I take. Mm-hmm. And I know we're out of time, so we should end Preston. I 

Margaret: had five cookies today so you can, I, you can scold me. 

Preston: Oh, thanks for sharing, Margaret. You're welcome.

Okay, well and I love that. I don't regret them. Well, we'll we'll see if Preston improves his diet. On, in episode two we'll have Dr. Ramsey sometimes eat depression anxiety with, yeah. Oh, I 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: hope you guys have you back. You like, you like my favorite podcast. So I hope I get to come back. I didn't get too loose in talking about gender dynamics and like.

Other things, but it's a real treat to be with you all. Thanks everybody who's listening, but I really appreciate the two of you being bold in residency, putting out a really popular podcast, giving a voice to, you know what, so many people are curious about how mental health clinicians are learning and developing and yeah, I'm a huge fan of you guys, so it's a treat to talk with you and, uh, I look forward to the next time.

Preston: Yeah. Thank you for being here. Really, we try to just make ourselves a soundboard to, to echo [00:54:00] the voices of the profession, and that's what we see you as the, the token voice of all things professional and nutritional psychiatry. And really psych like psychodynamic psychiatry. 

Margaret: I want you guys to write a men's health book now together.

Dr. Drew Ramsey: I, you know, Margaret, I've been pitching a men's health book. That's my dream for you too, for like the last five years, uh, around male mental health. Greg Scott Brown and I have been thinking about this, where it's just, there there isn't really a, there's, um, Terry Terence Real has, has a book on male depression.

I think that's really one of the first. There's a great book book called, um, it, it's a, it's a, a workbook for Boys and Men. Um mm-hmm. I'm spacing on the name there. So there are a few titles in the space. But yeah, I'd love to write a, I'd love to write a, a male mental health book to one to let guys know.

Boy, there's, there's a lot, there's a lot more. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Preston: Well, well speak. Speaking of your aspirations and ways to [00:55:00] celebrate you, do you have any socials or, um, websites that you wanna plug right now? 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: Yeah, sure. I'd be my website. Drew ramsey md.com is, um, filled with books. I've got five books, but healing the Modern Brain's most recent Eat two Beach Depression and Anxiety is a, a, just a nice gift and a good, uh, solid I hope book for people interested in that subject.

We've got some e-course on my website, um, if you wanna hear a longer jam version of some of these details. I have a nutritional psychiatry clinician training, which is a great way to get an introduction to this field and some of how I work with patients. Um. And then I'm Drew Ramsey, MD on Instagram. Uh, so yeah, I, I'm happy to interact and, uh, I've got a free newsletter Friday Fields comes out every Friday with kind of the latest, greatest, coolest stuff going on in nutritional, psychiatry and mental fitness.

So those are my socials. Those are things that I have for you waiting on my [00:56:00] website. I've got this really beautiful PDF brain food on a budget that, that's probably the one I wanna, um, along with some other things. So that's one you're 

Preston: sending to Preston because he doesn't have enough Omega, uh, three fatty acids in his diet.

Exactly. 

Margaret: And who would you choose to be your patients in it? 

Preston: Oh, right, Margaret. Just kidding. Don't 

Margaret: answer it. I don't know the answer. She's mering on that. I don't wanna know the answer. 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: Well, you guys were in really different roles in this podcast, right? So you're bringing really different things. Preston is being open and vulnerable, but a little more kind of, I don't wanna say elusive, but a little, uh, it's a very different feeling what that treatment would look like.

Margaret, you can tell very quickly like some of the, you know, uh, um, goofy dad dynamics, right? And then some of that, uh, kind of what's happening with you and men and being with men, uh, in that clinical space. That, that's all really interesting stuff in terms of, uh, treating you. So, it, it would be. It would be [00:57:00] tough.

It'd be interesting to treat you kind of as like a couple quote unquote, not that you're a couple, but just like, you know, as you're kind of dealing with your process and, and, uh, notoriety and an audience. Um, but, uh, you know, I think you have some mentors for that. It would be a, it would be a tough choice.

Margaret definitely would've won like two months ago just because I was very bro heavy in my practice. Mm-hmm. And, um, but then that really shifted over the last month. And so it's a tough choice. It's a tough choice. Um, 

Margaret: you can take us as a podcast diad, help us sort things out. Yeah. 

Preston: It's, it's a dynamic dyad.

Well, I think, I think it's the, ultimately the unanswerable questions, but ones that we can ponder, um, till the sun sets. If you're the listener who, who watches engaged, who would you want to be? Your patient? Don't, or who would you want to be? Your psychiatrist? Don't. Margaret? Yeah, let's please, let's, let's pit ourselves against each other more now.

No. [00:58:00] If you want to come chat with us though, you can find us on Instagram and TikTok at Human Content Pods. You can always contact the team directly at how to be patient pod.com and on our Instagram, we'll be reposting Drew Ramsey a lot. We, we already interact pretty frequently over there, so we'll be around.

We spammed. Shout out to everyone who's leaving great and wonderful comments and also. Shout out to people who are leaving kind of mean and derisive comments because it's all data and it all helps us learn more about how we interact with the world and, and it's like exposure therapy. At the end of the day, guys protective who's 

Dr. Drew Ramsey: leaving mean comments.

Who guys are great, who 

Preston: these trolls. So was one time someone was like, Margaret laughs too much. And someone else was like, this is not funny enough. And then someone was like. Preston interrupts Margaret too much, and then Margaret interrupts Preston. I think we started realizing we're chasing our tail and we're like, you know what?

People like what they like, and we can just try our best to do our best. But if you wanna see us interrupting each other more, you can find us on YouTube at its prerow or anywhere you get your podcasts in the for the [00:59:00] audio versions. Thanks again for listening. We're your host, Preston Roche and Margaret Duncan.

Our executive producers are Preston Roche, Margaret Duncan, will Flannery, Kristin Flannery, Aaron Corny, Rob Goldman and Shanti Brook. Our editor and engineer is Jason Portizo. Our music is Bio Mayor Ben V, and this was our guest Drew Ramsey, md. To learn more about our program, disclaimer and ethics policy submission verification, licensing terms, and our HIPAA release terms, go to our website, how to Be Patient pod.com, or reach out to us at how to Be patient@humancontent.com with any questions or concerns.

How to be patient is a human content product.

Patient.

Thank you for watching. If you wanna see more of us or if you wanna see, this is lilac. She's my cat. She's gonna be waving her hand at [01:00:00] one of the floating boxes, which will lead to more episodes. Lilac Point to the other episodes. Lilac doesn't know what the internet is, but I swear they're there. They, they probably exist for real.

But in the meantime, I'm just gonna pet lilac and then I'm gonna go dance in the background.