Food Fears, Myths, and Mental Health

Preston: [00:00:00] Well, I drink unpasteurized, uh, spring water. I think it's pretty good. I haven't gotten sick yet. 

Hydroxide: One of those raw water bros. 

Preston: Yeah, yeah. Raw, raw water. Trying to get off that. 

Hydroxide: Yeah. I just actually get the ladle with the pond Scum. Take a little sip of that. Mm, 

Preston: nice. Nice. 

Hydroxide: You're like, 

Margaret: I should just walk around the hospital and just whatever cup's left out, I drink.

Unless I build that immunity, 

Hydroxide: oh God. They gimme the ick how 

Margaret: to be patient. 

Preston: Welcome to season three of how to be patient. We are so excited that you're here with us. 

Margaret: Third time's a charm. That's what I hear. Yeah, 

Preston: we'll, we'll figure it out eventually. Um, so we are kicking it off actually, right where we ended season two in the theme of nutrition and food.

And Margaret brought on this great guest that I'll let Margaret talk about. So. 

Margaret: I will introduce hydroxide, but hydroxide is someone I've been following on TikTok and learning a lot from in terms of food science and [00:01:00] someone from within the industry. As a lot of us know, you may be asking, why are you doing so many food episodes?

And the first answer is because I like food and food. 

Preston: Food for thought 

Margaret: food. Food for the mood, right? Food for thought. Mm-hmm. Exactly, exactly. Specialize. That's season three. Um, but with this episode in particular and what we ended up talking about. There's so much misinformation about food and how it impacts mental health and general wellbeing that a lot of our patients or just general people we're running into, or ourselves, as you will hear, um, can get mixed up with or hear, and there can be risks to some of the misinformation as well as just making a lot of people feel like they're on edge and they can never do anything right or get the right information around how to feed themselves, their families.

Um, so I think this episode is really great. The other thing that I wanted, we wanted to say is that new for season three. Um, first of all, thank you to everyone on Instagram who answers my many poll and survey questions. Um, for season three, we are trying out doing a [00:02:00] Patreon and, but for real this time and what we're gonna do, we've been saying we've been teasing it.

Now we're gonna actually do it. Um, and we are gonna make our episodes a little bit, first of all, more structured because we got got your guys' feedback of. Bringing a little bit more structure into like the opening parts and what you're gonna get in them. Um, but then we're also adding an additional segment or continuation for each episode, and that will be on the Patreon.

Uh, the Patreon lets us make this sustainable to do. We work with a team, um, and it lets us continue to be discerning about taking sponsorships and ads and only really working with places that we feel like kind of uphold our ethics and the kind of community that we wanna create. And. Disseminate online with podcasts?

Did I say all of that right? 

Preston: Yeah, I, I think so. I think you said it perfectly. I, I think what, and what I'd add on to is that Margaret and I would do this for free, but it's hard to us for, to do it while paying for it with a resident budget. So [00:03:00] 

Margaret: yeah, 

Preston: that's, that's why, that's why we, we kind of need to find ways to, um, I guess as Alex Jones would say, keep the lights on.

And hopefully we don't resort to Alex Jones's Infowars tactics. But the the point is we want to create a space where y'all get some value and chat with us more intimately. And also like we can find a way to, to keep the podcast running because ultimately we, we want to keep doing this thing. We really like it.

Margaret: Yeah. So to sum up, we're sellouts, uh, this is a money gra 

Preston: Yeah. And, and my, uh, my clothing line is coming soon. Don't worry. 

Margaret: Mech. 

Preston: Uh, so yeah, it, it's gonna be an exciting podcast. We're gonna talk about raw milk. We're gonna get into red food dyes, A DHD, ultra processed food, a little bit about protein, non pros, kombucha.

Yeah, it, and really we get the perspective of a food scientist on all this things. So all these things. So this is a all more in the food industry and how it affects your mental health rather than before. What, [00:04:00] which foods do I pick? From my garden, um, as it was with Dr. Drew Ramsey. So without further ado, let's get into the podcast.

Margaret: Welcome to the show. We have hydroxide with us, which you may know her from TikTok, which are you on TikTok and other platforms? 

Hydroxide: TikTok? Yeah, I'm on TikTok, Instagram and YouTube. And Patreon, of course. And Twitch. And. You're on everything. I love 

Margaret: that. I know you hate on 

Hydroxide: Substack. 

Margaret: Yeah. So Hydroxide is a food scientist.

Here's every single conversation I've ever had as a food scientist. Here's every single conversation I've ever had as a food scientist. Here's every single conversation I've ever had as a food scientist. You and I have been mutuals, but we're having you on because of how helpful fra frankly, personally, I've found your work.

Um, your series on TikTok has been really, really great at myth busting a lot of. The [00:05:00] misinformation that's been coming out around food. And from, I think an interesting position. I think there's a lot of registered dieticians who are really great sources of information, but you are someone who has set over seven years of experience in the food industry.

You've worked in all these different environments. I know meat processing plants, chocolate factories, fermentation rooms, which by the way, I doesn't, didn't know as an option for a type of room, but I love that, um, and so much more. And now you have over 400,000 followers on social media in the last year.

Is that right? Correct. And I get a, a laugh out of all of your videos while also learning something and we are so excited to have you on. Did I miss anything? 

Hydroxide: I don't think so. That was very glowing. I really appreciate that, that laugh, comment. I really hold dear to my heart. 'cause I also try to, you know, make people feel entertained and learn.

Preston: I guess I'm curious how, how you came up with the name hydroxide. 

Hydroxide: Yeah. So I would say my name is sort of like threefold. Uh. Obviously I [00:06:00] do science stuff, so I wanted to have a sy name. Uh, it is sort of like a mini esque anagram of my real name. And um, I also think it's funny because, uh, on the pH scale, hydroxide is like basic.

And so I'm like it 'cause I'm a basic bitch. I dunno. Can we swear on here? We'll never not swear in an 

Preston: episode according to our ratings. Just get a quick fuck out there and then we 

Margaret: Welcome to season three. Yeah. Well, I think it's great to have you on and the thing we're gonna start with, so we always start with an icebreaker.

Although our audience, we do wanna let you know that in season three we heard your complaints we're gonna be. A little bit tighter with things bit, so don't worry. Um, but related to what we're gonna talk about today, the icebreaker that I have is asking you and then Preston and I, from our experience as psychiatrists, what impact food [00:07:00] misinformation and fearmongering you think might have in terms of impacting people's overall sense of wellbeing and mental health.

Hydroxide: Yeah. Um, so I think one of the biggest reasons why food is seen as such a tool for your own mental health is because in the world of healthcare, it's one of the few things that individuals can truly control. Um, you know, uh, not including all the accessibility issues and that sort of thing, but you know, everyone has to eat.

Everyone has to grocery shop, everyone goes out to eat. It's just part of life, um, and part of survival and thriving. So I, I do think people see it as like a primary tool to change their health. Um, more so than having to go to the doctor and get medication, having to take that extra step to formalize it.

It's sort of like, you know, sort of a life hacky way to address something that you have to do every day. And, uh, use [00:08:00] that as like the arbiter of change in your life. Um, which I do think on it, it's sort of a, a spectrum because I think it does help a lot of people. I mean, I know it's helped me for sure, understanding how food works, um, understanding how to cook things and vitamins and minerals and all that other stuff.

Um, but I do think there's a flip side to that where I think the issue with propagating misinformation. This is a huge lesson that I think a lot of people don't understand about the food industry. Since I work in the food industry, I'm not a healthcare professional. People think like the big food or like the food industry is out to get you or is like not listening to you.

But in reality, consumers direct almost everything that comes out of the food industry. And when misinformation is a big part of that, then our food system reacts to what consumers want and changes it. Um. This can be good or this can be, you know, uh, mismanaged, I [00:09:00] think is a good word for it. Something I think about a lot is like food dies right now.

There's this huge push to be like, food dies out of the system. Artificial or synthetically made food dies out of the system. Petroleum food dies out of the system. And I think there's a lot of reasons why people are not a fan, but the thought is, is that they're really detrimental to our health. Um, but.

In reality, and we'll probably explore this later. They're not, um mm-hmm. And so now it, it's kind of, it, it, it goes in this weird cycle where people get upset about something. Food companies listen and change their formulas. I mean, food dice have been removed from the system for the past 15 years, uh, behind the scenes.

But now that it's becoming more public policy, basically these big food companies have a pr slam dunk opportunity to get people to buy more. So it just sort of like becomes this weird cycle of like. Misinformation, turning into reality, turning into still no changes in our overall health. [00:10:00] 

Preston: I think that's something I've noticed too, with, not necessarily necessarily misinformation, but maybe, um, misapplied information.

So, 

Hydroxide: yes. 

Preston: Um, like for example, there in the nineties there was this huge kick on. Um, fat being the bad guy and for a long time, like fat was vilified. And then I'm resonating with what you're saying that companies or, or everything advertised like fat free or zero fat in this not mentioning that, you know, it's just filled with tons of sugar or any other macronutrients, it's not as healthy.

And then recently what I've seen is there's a huge push to put protein in everything. And I can see the industry responding to that too. Like everyone wants to emphasize protein, so now you can find anything with. 12, 15 grams of protein, like enhanced, whether it's like a breakfast muffin or a pancake oatmeal.

This is are all breakfast food. But even like weird stuff like kombu, they're trying to like protein enhanced kombucha now. Like, good lord. 

Margaret: I think we we're missing a, a opportunity. Why don't we, why don't we make protein Prozac? [00:11:00] An option for us to think about in psychiatry something for the bro. That was an idea.

Could that get Jim Rose to take it? Sorry, I interrupted you, coach Zach. It already has pro in it. It you're, you're good to go. 

Preston: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. 

Margaret: Um, yeah. Sorry, Preston, I interrupted you. 

Preston: Yeah, so, so I guess, um, I, I already can kind of see what you're saying with how responsive the industry is to. Consumers consumer are afraid of or emphasize.

So now, so now like what do you think outside of food dies or like some of the most dangerous single points of misinformation that we're dealing with now, especially when this kind of new era, new political climate, so to speak? 

Hydroxide: Yeah, I think the number one one I can think of is raw milk for. Um, because, you know, we hear a lot about like food dyes and seed oils.

But I would say those in terms of like, if you were to somehow avoid those for the rest of your life, you would be perfectly [00:12:00] fine. But if you were to not drink pasteurized milk anymore and only opt for raw milk, uh, it's both like an individual and a public health crisis. And there's a reason why we invented tech heat technology to like.

Help. This is because, um, it's basically just bacteria soup. Um mm-hmm. 

[music]: Plus the 

Hydroxide: nutrient content is no better than pasteurized milk. So it's, it's, it's, uh, something that I'm actually very scared of. Um, especially because more states are allowing for legal sale of raw milk because it's not managed by the federal government.

It's banned for. Interstate sale. The interstate sale, but you can buy it within your state. Um, and one of the worries I think is with bird flu kind of on the rise right now, and a lot of cows, you know, being part of this like agricultural thing, like. It's potential. There could be that human [00:13:00] crossover if people are opting to drink more raw milk.

Um, so, and even aside from that, I think the other most dangerous thing about raw milk is milk is commonly given to children. Um. And I had like a, I read like a pretty serious study that analyzed like a bunch of raw milk outbreaks that happened in the last year. And the median age of people who got salmonella was six.

And like, that like kind of hurts my heart to think about. It's like, oh man. 'cause you can, even if. You know, people think that foodborne illnesses just, you throw up, you poop. That's it. They call it like two bucket syndrome sometimes. 'cause you're going out both ends. Oh my God. But in reality, like foodborne illness can be like super dangerous for long-term health.

Um, some e coli can give you like kidney disease for life. And when you're getting that as a kid, you know, there's ch you, you're more immunocompromised. So I think raw milk is maybe one of the more damaging ones. [00:14:00] Especially in terms of public health too. Because another thing is that tuberculosis can even come from raw milk settings and become spread because of it.

So the other thing I was just gonna say 

Margaret: is I see people, like, I feel, I am in child psychiatry fellowship right now, and when I work with adults, I work with pregnant and postpartum breastfeeding women. And so there's like. The risk of actually following some of these things that there's dangers like we're talking about right now and that we'll get back to again in a minute.

But also the amount of fear and kind of panic that every time they go to the grocery store becomes, or go to a restaurant or go to even just like eating by themselves, right? Like it be so many of the people I see are already more anxious than they were pre pandemic, both from and more isolated. So we take these rituals of connection, which is what eating is for so many people, and add just a ton of unnecessary or unwarranted anxiety.

And then it's [00:15:00] like this thing that's supposed to be connecting us and calming us in some ways becomes just like another thing you're doing wrong or might come back to bite you. Um. So I think that's the other side of it, because I feel like I see a lot of people who aren't necessarily drinking raw milk, but they're seeing all this stuff about like, do I need to, like, am I hurting my kids by having this while I'm pregnant?

Am I mm-hmm. Da dah, dah, dah. And then that amount, another way you can information. Yeah. But that amount of information also I think makes it, it becomes such a wide terrain of information. People feel like they have to know that they get overwhelmed and stop taking it in, and then they don't know.

Sometimes I think. They don't know what the actual important information is, so they'll be pregnant and they'll be having like sushi or something because there's just been so much information that they kind of tuned out. Um, so that's the other side that I see. So, sorry, press. I just wanted to answer that.

I wanted talk a little bit more about that question. 

Preston: We were just kind of steamrolling into it. So thank you for sharing Margaret. I'm, I'm [00:16:00] glad that. We're able to not only just kinda look at the emphasis on raw milk, but remember that there's a whole psyche and community and c communion that's built around eating food.

And that's a whole like kind of separate and parallel part of this. 

Margaret: Yeah, I think that's what the ma, I mean I don't, I don't know. I would, I don't have stats on this part, but like I think of, I feel like we see as all of us as creators on the internet who therefore consume a lot of the internet. Like we see the kind of people who are.

Rage baiting, whether intentionally or just truly are like, this is my mission, is to sell raw milk. Um, but I think there's so many people who consume it and have no idea what to do with the information. A 

Hydroxide: hundred percent. A hundred percent. 

Preston: Yeah. Rage, bait or fearmonger? Choose. Choose your character. 

Hydroxide: Choose your fighter.

Yeah. Yeah. Online you can either be a Rage Baiter, a Fearmonger, or a Gooner. Those are the three different, the ones you can pick, or 

Preston: a goon Baer. Or Goon [00:17:00] Vader. 

Hydroxide: That's right. Yeah. Yeah. 

Preston: Mm-hmm. 

Hydroxide: Yeah. Yeah. 

Preston: Secret. Secret. Next level. So I guess we will take a quick break and we'll come back. We will return to the, uh, discussion of raw milk.

Margaret: Yeah, we will. And Preston has a history he wants to share. 

Preston: I do. 

Margaret: All right. We'll be right back.

Okay. We have a bunch of things that I wanna pick your brain on, even though you have kindly provided the internet with videos and resources on this already. You are now gonna provide our podcast with this and answer our question. So Preston is chomping at the bit to use another barnyard animal metaphor or nibbling at 

Preston: the petite to to share.

Margaret: You know, the good thing about the AirPods is I could just like walk away. 

Preston: Yeah, very true. 

Margaret: All right. I have somehow stayed out of. I only know surface level things about the whole raw milk things and what, why people are saying that you should have them. [00:18:00] Preston has a whole history, so I think I'm gonna just let you guys talk on this and I'm gonna sit back and learn.

So I'm our listener right now. 

Preston: Well, yeah, I feel, I feel like I'm really overhyped what this history is. I was just interested in pasteurization and I was like, oh, can we talk about that before we get into raw milk and Margo's? Sure. Just keep it short, Preston. Okay. I didn't say that. So this is me. This is me keeping it short.

Margaret: I said your story can't be longer than five minutes. True. I was like, we're doing a 20 minute history. 

Preston: Well, let's get on with it. So. So basically. Um, in the 1860s, Napoleon was running to this big problem with spoiled food, and they were actually, um, really concerned about the wine and the beer that they were trying to distribute.

So a lot of them had microbes in it. They would spoil quickly. They didn't have long shelf lives, and it was hard to support, you know, troops and civilians. People were getting sick from it. So, hydroxide, like you mentioned, there's tuberculosis in this. There's also brucellosis. So a lot of things that are basically causing people to have fevers then, then.

Contract it and they're [00:19:00] spreading them. It's not only foodborne or, or, um, fluid borne, but also airborne. So these are terrible things to have in, um, confined conditions. So anyways, Napoleon commissions, this guy, Louis pastor says it's an epi to figure out how to solve the food problem. And he's just, he's just looking at all of these fluids under a microscope and he sees these microbes that are separate from the regular food nutrients and he just heats 'em up.

That's it. And he, he realized that if he heats it up, then it sterilizes the food and, and that actually worked for the beer and the wine, but then it also worked for milk. And so it just kind of changed the game. And then all of a sudden rates of tuberculosis and brucellosis and child death started tanking because one of the largest causes of child death was diseases being spread through milk.

Hydroxide: Yes. Yeah. 

Preston: That that was about it. Like you just gotta heat it up fast, that brief fast and [00:20:00] cool it fast and voila, which is, it was interesting to me how simple of a process it was that it gets so much hate. I'm like, you're just, all you're doing is like putting it in a vat and giving it some heat. Like, what, what el, why is everyone so mad about this?

The only thing I can think of is that because it was 150 years ago, maybe 180 years ago. We can't remember, like no one remembers the time when people were getting TB from milk. Like no one has a grandparent or just getting T that died. Died of brucellosis. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. 

Hydroxide: I think we really take science for granted sometimes.

I mean, if you think about it, like everything we know about biology has really only come to fruition in the past, like 100, 150 to 200 years. Um. Which is not very long ago at all. So I think I, I think that's another thing is I think we really tend to take the simple science stuff for granted. And you know, obviously when we look back it's like they just heated it up.

Like, isn't that kind of obvious? But [00:21:00] to give more respect to Louis past, it wasn't just that he invented pasteurization, but he was kind of the one to kickstart germ theory. Um, because most people believed in spontaneous generations. So they just saw like a dead guy with some maggots on it and was like.

He turned into some maggots. I guess that's ghosts, just how it works. Mm-hmm. So it's like, it's quite remarkable how pasteurization is not only an amazing tool for like applied science like food and agriculture, but just for the field of science and micro and all that stuff in general. It's, it's really quite remarkable.

And another thing that really gets me going about the raw milk stuff is. I hear a lot of people say, well, I just boil it at home. But here's the thing to actually do pasteurization, you do not have to reach boiling temperatures unless you're trying to do like ultra high pasteurization. 'cause do you ever see like those milks in a box or on like the shelf and [00:22:00] you're like.

How the f did they, how the F is the milking box. You box my protein shakes? Yes. It's because they, they use ultra height pasteurization, which is a much higher temperature. Wow. But real pasteurization, you don't need to go to even 200 Fahrenheit. It's, it's, you just need to do like a certain temperature for like.

No joke, like 30 seconds sometimes. And that's it. So the people who are bringing back raw milk and introducing these pathogens to their kitchen and then boiling it, you actually end up with like fewer nutrients because you're boiling it more versus if you got it pasteurized, if, if it is just already pasteurized, it's technically a less arduous heat process.

So it's like 

Preston: I don't, yeah. And so if you're boil it, you're literally denaturing the proteins, right? You're breaking apart the sugars. So that's what you're referring to. 

Hydroxide: Uh, kind of, and it's also like he Yeah, he, yes. Essentially, and he also changes vitamins and minerals and in certain ones in certain ways.

So, and, and enzymes and that sort [00:23:00] of thing. Um, so it's like we feel like we've, we've reached the point where the technology developed so well and so quick, and now it's like we're totally uno reversing that. You know what I mean? 

Preston: Yeah. We went so far, right. We went left. 

Margaret: Yeah. I feel like people, this is not just a problem with like raw milk, but it's this kind of, it's the taking for granted, like out of sight, out of mind, but there's also just everyone's talking about the literacy crisis.

And as a child psych person, that matters a lot to me. But I think the science literacy crisis and also just that people don't really know how science like works. Like how does research work? How do we come to a qua? Like how do we come to an agreement? About a finding how, like I, I'm at the point with this where it actually now pisses me off when people are like, da, da, da theory.

And it's like, it's not that serious, but I'm like, that's not what a theory means. Um, but I feel like [00:24:00] people are falling left and right to the kind of natural fallacy. And also the kind of, it makes sense fallacy of like, well, if kombucha's good for you. Obviously milk that lets things grow and it would also be good for you.

And Big Pharma doesn't want you to know that because they wanna sell you on all those medicines your GI doctors tell you is you have anxiety and you need an SSRI and therefore you should drink raw milk. Like yeah. That is, I feel like what I see online and sometimes in the government right now. 

Hydroxide: Yeah.

Well, if I could be my own devil's advocate for a second, I think. Something you stated earlier pre break is talking about connection in food and how that's important to people. Um, and I do think as we get further and further from how our food is produced, I think that is one big reason why raw milk has probably come back in is because it's all about building this relationship with your farmer and being like, I know my farmer, he would [00:25:00] never let me get sick, kind of thing.

Um, so I do think that is like a. A huge aspect of it is, is as things have become so much more splintered and isolated, um, not just in the food system, but just in general, uh, I think that, I mean, that's probably a big reason why people go and choose to do this. And in addition to that, I think another thing I always have to tell myself is that I really take my own knowledge for granted because mm-hmm.

[music]: Yeah. 

Hydroxide: For example, I will drink unpasteurized kombucha. Because I know that is a, it's an acidic product that has limiting factors such as sugars and um, other like ions and that sort of thing to make it so that bacteria, dangerous bacteria cannot thrive in this environment. 

Margaret: Mm-hmm. 

Hydroxide: But to, you know, to the average Joe, even people who are scientifically inclined, I would say.

They might see something that's [00:26:00] unpasteurized and assume that it's automatically unsafe, but there's like levels to certain things. And like since milk is not very low in acidity and it's also really high in sugar, it's so funny 'cause milk is like one of the most perfect mediums to grow bacteria in.

It's like, mm, yummy. Like, you know what I mean? So like, mm-hmm. But it's like kombucha is fine. And actually a lot of times companies will sell pasteurized kombucha that. I don't have a lot of probiotics in them. So, you know, it's this spectrum that I think is very complicated and is something I'm continuously reevaluating and how I disseminate information to people.

Mm-hmm. Because it's hard and it's a lot, you know. 

Preston: Yeah. Well, I drink unpasteurized, uh, spring water. I think it's pretty good. I haven't gotten sick yet. 

Hydroxide: One of those water, I might have a little bit less nutrients 

Preston: in it. Yeah, yeah. Raw water. Trying to get off that. 

Hydroxide: I just actually get the ladle with the pond Scum.

Take a little sip of that. Mm-hmm. 

Preston: Nice, nice. 

Margaret: You're like, I actually just walk around the hospital and just [00:27:00] whatever cups left out, I drink as I build that immunity. 

Hydroxide: Oh God. Like gimme the itch. Okay. 

Preston: I guess so kind of back to my previous question, when, when people are justifying or they're kind of.

Propagating this misinformation about raw milk, they, they believe it to be true. And like, do they think they really, truly believe that they're helping people by giving them this product that's ripe for microbes or pathogens, really? And is this just like. I guess, is it because it's echoed in these like Facebook groups or like certain chambers through social media?

Like have you seen different ways that this information is like caught on or is has like the raw milk movement always kind of existed as long as pasteurization has existed? 

Hydroxide: I do think it has always existed. I actually have done some deep dives into this. Um, there's, uh, a website called [00:28:00] the Western, a Price Foundation.

Um, and they're like a, a page that like supports raw milk and it's all about this guy who was called the Charles Darwin of nutrition. Um, but the writing on the blog is very, uh, alarming, I guess. Um, WAP it's called, yeah, a Wap. Um, but basically it's sort of like, here I can, I have some of it over here. I can read it to you.

Price traveled the world. Studying healthy primitive populations in their diets. That's already kind of a red flag word. The unforgettable photographs contained in his book document. Document the beautiful facial structure and suburb fused physiques of isolated groups consuming whole foods. Um, whole 

Preston: foods mentioned.

Hydroxide: Uh, and then the person who runs the website is this lady who calls herself the [00:29:00] web mistress. Period. But 

[music]: what, 

Hydroxide: you know, as much as, as much as it's funny to like laugh at this, it, it does like, sort of provide this level of legitimacy to people who are searching for their, their biases to be confirmed. Um, because it's like, oh, a real doctor studied it in these ancient, isolated populations and found that they were all very healthy.

Um, and so like I do think. Raw milk has probably, like fans have been around since pasteurization, but I think in the past 30 years there's just been more and more growth, especially since, you know, government regulations have a lot to do with it. And the fact that it is legal for you always get mixed up interstate commerce versus intrastate commerce.

So like if you live in the state of New York, you can go get in New York if it's legal in New York, um, kind of thing. Got, can't. Imported across state lines. Um, so, and I think the appeal to nature is just hard to [00:30:00] beat, honestly. Like the concept that we were all meant to be natural is, uh, you know, like you could tell anyone, like, Hey, it's normal for us to do that.

And you go like, you, you know what, yeah, you're right. Yeah. So, mm-hmm. The, 

Margaret: um, we talk about this all the time in psychiatry or we, we, we talk about on the podcast a lot and we talk about a lot in psychiatry. Sometimes we should more. Because psychiatry is, you know, pre paradigm. We don't exactly know why what is happening with different mental illnesses is happening there.

It can also fall prey to kind of like, well, it makes sense that someone who is sad would do this, like, let's say in the case of depression. And that historically has, has led us to interesting hypotheses, um, that have sometimes lasted longer than they should. One other point just about this website, because I'm looking at right now.

Is like one of the things with, I think health and science misinformation that it makes it really difficult to parse out on this website. There's like the 11 wise food principles and it's that it's mixed in with a lot of [00:31:00] information that is in concordance with recommendations like by registered dieticians, by the science and it's, it's hard to parse out if you're someone who isn't in the wor this world specifically, like number one, avoid all refined and denatured foods not totally different.

Include animal foods. Not really a huge red flag. Emphasize nutrient dense foods, eat some animal food, raw cook. Most plant foods lacto. Fermented condiments and beverages, seeds, grains and nuts. Avoid seed oil then, right? There's some things in all of this, but like I don't think that if I was. Trying for the first time, right?

Like let's say someone goes to their primary care doctor, they find out they're pre-diabetic and their blood pressure's high and for the first time they're trying to figure something out about how to eat to help those things. 'cause their doctor who's rushed and has to see 12 other patients 'cause healthcare is the way that it is.

And then they go online and they get recommended this by one of their friends who's recently lost weight [00:32:00] and don't have any other healthcare background. Like how do you not. I don't know. I, to your point, I don't know how you wouldn't kind of think that all of the information was true and where do you go to even question it.

It like, how do you know who to trust? 

Hydroxide: Yeah, and I think, again, playing devil's advocate towards myself, I think a lot of times scientists and the food industry don't do a very good job explaining what, what the heck everything is. So it kind of leaves this really open space for folks to come in and make their own blogs, make their own foundations, you know, because we have things like our, our state are wonderful.

Extension program, which if you know nothing about is like really awesome, like a great tool that everyone should use. Um, it's in all 50 states. Uh. Or reading through the boring ass FDA and USDA websites, you know, of course you're gonna go for something that is like slightly more this website. 

Margaret: I know me, me too.

I love it. Me too. But yeah, but [00:33:00] that's weird. It's weird that we like that. 

Hydroxide: Yeah. Um, so it, you know, it's, it's sort of, it creates this ripe opportunity for people to, um. Create a sense of community through ideology that is appealing to people. And like you said, like I, I think that's the other thing too, is like food is such a visual medium and so are our bodies.

So if someone had lost weight doing this, of course you would believe them because, um, I think like weight loss is. The thing that everyone considers to be like the determinant of health because it's one of the first things we see unless your, like face is like completely covered in hives or something.

Like, that's usually the first judgment that we, we cast. Okay. 

Margaret: We have, we can move on to some of a couple of our other myths here. Okay. Um, it, I just wrote seed, seed oils. Question mark. Question mark are not good for you. I was looking through some of your videos again this week and. [00:34:00] I guess I'm gonna again enter the basic question into the podcast, which is what are seed oils and why are we supposed to hate them from the other point of view, like, let's actually start there because I feel like that's more what my like patients and stuff here.

What people listening or their patients', family members', friends here, what are they and why do people think they're bad in, in theory? 

Hydroxide: Seed oils are so strange in terms of like the fact that they've sort of become public enemy number one. I'm like that. You know what I mean? Like, okay, why did we pick this?

I do think it comes from the fact that the paleo diet became kind of a thing in like the 2010s. And so during that time it was all the paleo diet was, and I know this 'cause my, my parents did it. Uh, it was like ve focus on vegetables, uh, fruits, meat. Don't eat any flour, don't eat [00:35:00] any. Like it, it was like kind of the first time that you could introducing butter and coconut oil.

That was when coconut oil, like first came on the scene. Um, you know, these saturated fats being, being like, echoing what Preston said earlier, you know, we, we went through this fat free phase and now all of a sudden it's like actually saturated fats are good for you or whatever. Um, so then it just sort of like.

It goes on this rollercoaster ride of like, okay, we're a paleo and then we go to keto, and then we go to carnivore, and then it's all over the place. And so as a result, I think of those diets becoming popular and sort of like sewn into the dietary social fabric. Mm-hmm. Um. Seed seed oils as bad is a thing also because seed oils are associated with processed foods because they're typically cheaper to make.

So that is things like sunflower oil, canola oil, um, and, and the like. Um, the, the other thing is, is that [00:36:00] what are seed oils, bitch, like, there's so many different definitions because I've heard people say corn oil is seed oil. I've heard people say peanut oil is seed oil. So that's where it kind of gets fuzzy.

I think the ones that people are mainly targeting fast, loose with what a seed is. Really though, really though, I think that the, the, the number two culprits, I would say are, uh, canola and, uh, sunflower. Um, because those are in a lot of processed foods 

Margaret: and so they're kind of like, and so if some, someone you know, maybe who would really espouse that seed oils are bad, what kind of like.

Talking points or points, I guess just like arguments would they make. 

Hydroxide: Um, okay. So the big ticket with these is that they're inflammatory. Um, and as we all know, inflammation is bad and has serves no other purpose whatsoever. Um, so I do think, and I think there's this, there's this [00:37:00] general thought that the things that we eat.

Make us inflamed and we're constantly inflamed from all these bad foods. So what do you cut out? You cut out seed oils and for a lot of people who do cut out seed oils, they're not cutting out their cooking oil, they're not cooking their eggs in something different. It's more like they are looking at the back of the label and seeing if their sunflower oil or canola oil and then putting it down.

So naturally, if you're eating a lot fewer, you know, salty snacks or, um. Ice cream or like coffee creamers, like, you know, you might be substituting it with other things or things that are lower in calories and then you'll be like, well, it's 'cause I cut seed oils out of my diet and, and I'm all better now is gone.

Um, yeah. And so a, a big part of the inflammation aspect is that Americans consume too many omega sixes compared to omega threes and that omega sixes are supposed to be inflammatory when we have too much of them. And that is because of linoleic acid in seed oils. [00:38:00] There's this thought that gets, that was the other part I was gonna ask you.

Okay. I was like, what? There's this, there's this point that linoleic acid gets converted into arachidonic acid, which is the inflammatory one, but in reality, only about 0.2% of all linoleic acid will get converted into that. Um, in addition to that, like canola oil. It's really not that high in terms of like omega sixes versus omega threes.

It's like a two to one ratio of omega six to omega threes. So I think. The concept that they're just like monumentally higher, uh, is not true. I would say the other, uh, another big argument that is usually with this sort of food misinformation is like, it's used in other things. So we've all heard of like the yoga mat chemical.

Um, and for this one specifically, it's like they use, they use seed oils in like commercial, like distilling. They use it in like fuel and like stuff like that. Or like equipment grease. And so it's like why are you [00:39:00] putting equipment grease in your body? So it's like the thing can't be used at another thing kind of fallacy.

Preston: Mm. So, um, I know we have a couple myths. I did have a question on one, so, and we didn't prep this, so sorry if this is out of left field, but, um, one thing that comes to me a lot is this concept of ultra processed food and, um, there are some studies, I've actually pulled up this review that showed, you know, people who.

Consume ultra processed food or, uh, suffer from higher rates of depression, and it's been kind of propagated around a lot, but I don't think I ever really understood what ultra processed food is. Of itself, like I, I obviously like radioactive Mountain Dew or Fritos or something appears to me as ultrapro.

'cause you would never find a Dorito tree or something like that. And I think most of the advice I get is just to look at the number of ingredients and if there's a few, it's probably not ultrapro, but just as a food science, I'd be really curious what your take is on kind of the whole ultra process to rhetoric.

Hydroxide: [00:40:00] Yeah, I, uh, I've been chewing on that a lot. I've been reading the book Ultra Processed People and doing like, chapter ish by chapter reviews on my Patreon. Um, it's funny, I love that you mentioned Fritos in terms of like whatever has a long list of ingredients. 'cause Fritos has three ingredients total.

Those are my girls, like it's. I was actually gonna make a video about this, like a parody video about this. It's, it'll probably be up by the time this comes out, but it's like, then the list. It's all, and it's all ingredients you can pronounce. I'm pretty sure it's just corn, corn oil, and salt. Um, so it's not about the list of ingredients, I would say.

And the other thing is that. Personally, I don't think ultra processed foods have a good definition. The one that everyone discusses is something called, um, the Nova Classification. Uh, it was this study that was done in Brazil about, there's four tiers of food. So there's like, you know, like fruits and vegetables, and the next one might be [00:41:00] like spices, and then the next one might be like.

Canned soups, I think. And then the next one, the, the ultra processed food category is category four, which there's some things on there that make sense, like chips, candy, that sort of thing. So there's stepwise 

Preston: more processed is the Nova, um, delineation? 

Hydroxide: Um, yes. But they also things on there like baby formula and uh.

For example, like a, a brand I bring up a lot is like the, I don't know if you've had like the Kevin's Sovi chicken or beef, it's like a brand that they're in Costco. Um, but even though it is a product that I would say is like pretty good for you, you know, it's got protein, it tastes good, uh, that is still considered an ultra processed food.

So is Banza pasta, which is like a chickpea pasta that's high in protein. So it's just I have that in my 

Preston: pantry. 

Hydroxide: Yeah, yeah. Oh man. So I think the whole [00:42:00] concept of defining ultra processed foods, like we don't have a good definition yet, and I, I personally think the processing of a food is not a one-to-one of how healthful it is.

Um. I think the word I prefer that I've heard is hyper palatability, which I like a little more like in terms of how good something tastes and how much we wanna just keep eating it because, you know, we're human beings and we like things that taste good. Um, but like I said, like, uh, I think ultra process is a bit of a misnomer, I guess.

Margaret: I think it's the kind of, it has become a clarion call kind of of like, someone says ultrapro and it's like a bad word. And so it automatically is associated with kind of all the foods that we press that some of the ones Preston mentioned, and like therefore unhealthy, bad kind of association. Whereas I feel like from what I have read and.

Listen to for other people and kind of some [00:43:00] registered dieticians talk about this on TikTok too, is exactly what you're saying of like the definition of it and the meaning of it. Like if something is ultra processed but healthy for you and actually is a good thing to eat multiple times a week for the rest of your life versus many other things that are less processed, then what does the word ultra process indicate in terms of like functionality of the word?

Um, but. Because I know there was someone, there was a, a while on TikTok where, uh, like every once in a while I get a video from one of the grocery store walkers that is like, these, you know, frozen broccoli florets are gonna, like, these are ultra processed. And I'm like, if we could get more people eating broccoli, I mean, um, but yeah.

So kind of teasing apart those connotate connotations of words that like the public has versus. Do they need to have negative associations with all these foods that they see or maybe used to like? Mm-hmm. [00:44:00] Okay. So we are gonna take a quick break and when we come back we will continue with a few more myths and wrap things up.

So we will be right back.

If you wanna catch the rest of the myth we're doing, you will catch them on Patreon. This is an awful way of transitioning, but I'll get, we'll get better at transitioning, but you can catch the next part of this on Patreon. Boom. 

Hydroxide: Alright. Um, 

Margaret: so I just like, I hate it. Capitalism. 

Hydroxide: Yeah. No, don't hate it. A starving artist is never, is never hot Mouth don't.

Margaret: I know you had mentioned a couple things that you're working on now. So first of all, let's start with where can people find you online to keep learning about the food science and what all the conversations you have with people including us are like, 

Hydroxide: yeah, well this one was a very delightful conversation.

I have a few bits where the other [00:45:00] person is very receptive, so I think in terms of my skits, that would be you guys, which I deeply appreciate. Um. I am on TikTok. You can find me on there at hydroxide on Instagram and YouTube. You can find me at Hydroxide Food Science on Patreon. You can find me at Hydroxide Food Science and on Twitch.

I believe you can find me on hydroxide food science. Um, I am also, I have a website coming out very hopefully by the time this episode comes out. I'm really excited about it, my friend's designing it. It's gonna look really cool. Uh, that should be just hydroxide food science.com and. Other things. Again, hopefully by the time this episode's out, I'm, right now I'm writing a script about the Yuca, the Yucca app.

The Yucca app. Mm-hmm. I think it's Yucca. Um, so I'm really excited to present that one, sort of touching on the things we talked about today with ultra processed foods and, uh, chemical readings and that sort of thing. [00:46:00] So trying to think if there's anything else. I, I don't think so. I just, uh, really appreciate you guys for having me on and for considering me for such a, I would say, professional podcast.

So I, I feel very honored to have that. Hey, we're adding 

Margaret: nutrition back into meds. We're adding on what we already got med school finally. Yeah. Well, it's been, it's been lovely to have you on and for our first episode of season three. 

Hydroxide: I know. I feel so honored. I'm kicking things off. Thank you guys. 

Margaret: Really appreciate it.

Preston: Well, thanks guys for listening to another episode. Welcome to season three. I, I think this is gonna be a lot of fun. I appreciate y'all being patient with us as we kind of try to like figure out this new dynamic between the, the Patreon section and, um, the main episode section. I think our hope going forward is that we'll have our own episodes that can kind of stand on their own, but then as we get a little bit more loose and get into like the specific content, um, with other side quests, basically that'll be around on the [00:47:00] Paton.

But you guys can join this on. 

Margaret: It's like, oh, I want seconds. 

Preston: Metaphorically. Yeah. 

Margaret: You are like, okay, maybe this month I can Patreon. Oh, literally this is 

Preston: a food episode.

So, um, thank you to everyone who's, who's leaving all of their helpful comments. I was going through my dms and um, someone on the how to be patient. Instagram said, not necessarily a question for today's episode, but I think grapefruit mention relation to meds would be helpful mostly. The question, um, my favorite White claw flavor is grapefruit.

So can I still drink or can I still drink it while taking my antidepressants? And that's fantastic question. That could be whole episode. Yeah. But anyways, I, I looked into it really quickly. And so the sip four 50 inhibition comes from the flavonoids inside of grapefruit, which as far as I can tell are not.

Present in the artificial grapefruit flavor and white claw. So I'll let you counsel your patients on drinking alcohol separate to all that stuff. But the actual CYP four 50, [00:48:00] inhibiting part of grapefruit doesn't seem to be in White Claw. And that's all I have to say about that. 

Margaret: And you please read your prescription bottle on whether you should drink alcohol with 

Preston: you.

This not, this is not medical advice. 

Margaret: This is not medical advice. 

Preston: This is just me commenting on what ingredients are in why claw and not. 

Margaret: White claw. Okay. From a, from a scraped juice standpoint, not great. From a depressant standpoint, 

Preston: from alcohol standpoint. Yeah. 

Margaret: Um, also leave reviews 'cause they help us.

They make other people see that this podcast exists. I know we hate saying it. But they do. So 

Preston: I don't hate saying it. Leave a review. Leave a review or a come to your house, gonna take a white cloth. And if you leave comments on Spotify, we see those too. We, we try to see, I've been trying to reply to as many comments as I can.

I would just appreciate y'all interacting with us. And it really kind of feels like a community at this point. And I. Honestly, just so grateful that we can have this giant group conversation. So if you like always, if you want to come contact me and Margaret. I'm at its Preau [00:49:00] on TikTok and Instagram.

She's at Badar every day. She's almost to a hundred thousand followers on Instagram. I think it was 99.3 last time I checked 

Margaret: TikTok. Oh, on TikTok. 

Preston: Yeah. So. Margaret says that she's gonna delete her TikTok when she gets to a hundred thousand. So please, together we can get me off the internet one account at a time.

Yeah, 

Margaret: you can also one account every day. 

Preston: You can also find us at how to be patient pod.com. Um, and then full episodes are always gonna be on my YouTube channel at its pres row. Thanks again for listening. We're your hosts, Preston Roche and Margaret Duncan. Our executive producers are me, Preston, Roche, Margaret Duncan, will Flannery, Kristin Flannery, Aaron Corny, Rob Goldman and Shanti Brook.

Our editor and engineer is Jason Portizo. Shout out to Jason for, um, sticking along with all of this rambunctious shenanigans and disorganization. You really tied breaking the wall, our talk together. Yes, Jason, we love you and thank, and this season third, we're just gonna 

Margaret: have all the Jason shout outs during the podcast as an [00:50:00] bonus episode.

The, the outro 

Preston: will just be a love letter to Jason every time, and also to Omer Ben-Zvi for doing our music. We also really appreciate you Omer. I love the soft piano going in and out of the beginning of the episode, beginning end the episodes. To learn more about our program, disclaimer and ethics policy, submission verification, and licensing terms, and our HIPAA release terms, go to How to be patient pod.com or reach out to us at how to be patient@humancontent.com with any questions or concerns.

How to be patient is a human content production.

Thank you for watching. If you wanna see more of us or if you wanna see, this is lilac. She's my cat. She's gonna be waving her hand at one of the floating boxes, which will lead to more episodes. Lilac Point to the other episodes. Lilac doesn't know what the internet is, but I swear they're there. They, they [00:51:00] probably exist for real.

But in the meantime, I'm just gonna pet lilac and then I'm gonna go dance in the background.