Concrete Self-Care in Hard Times with Amanda Stuckey Dodson

HBP.EP.043.Video.Public [00:00:00] If you had to choose between like keeping your stuff and having no one come stay with you ever, or like making a little space within the stuff and being able to have people come stay with you, which one of those options sounds better? Don't tell me with a good time there. No. Keeping my stuff and no one has to visit me. Well, what would be the impact? Like would it damage any of your relationships? They've pretty much said that I need to find a way to integrate with the family again. Yeah, they've really got you in a corner, don't they? Yeah. Welcome back to How to Be Patient. Today we have a Margaret LED episode, which I'm excited to passenger Princess for, but I, your faithful captain will be doing the introduction. Today we have, um, Amanda Stuckey Dodson, who is our lovely social worker, therapist, and author today, who recently wrote a book that is coming out soon. On November 11th, [00:01:00] tidying the Abyss, a practical guide to cleaning and organizing while exhausted and overwhelmed. Now, um, I've never been exhausted or overwhelmed, so do you have any practical glides to, to cleaning when you're in data health for other has burnout episodes? Uh, obviously we kid around here. We're, we're residents, but we're cool residents and we're here to have a, a good, fun time and talk to you, Amanda, about what it is you do. So thank you for being here with us. Thank you. Excited to talk to you guys. We're gonna do an icebreaker as we tend to do, uh, with guests. One part that we didn't mention. So you're a clinical social worker, but a big part of your work over the last few years and this book has been, um, being a life skills specialist. Before we go into the question, which will build a little bit on this, do you wanna describe what your work is like now in the last year? I'm sure right now there's lots of book promo things, but what do, how do you [00:02:00] define the work you do now with clients? Yeah, so, um. It's hard to define life skills specialist because it's a title that I made up for myself. So I'm just gonna, I love creativity. Describe like the job. Yeah, the job that I've kind of fallen into and made for myself. But um, basically I work. With people one-on-one to help them solve their organizational problems. Um, whether that is like home disorganization or just sort of general life, not togetherness. Um, because I have a background as a therapist, I attract a lot of clients who have like interfering mental health conditions or interfering chronic illness conditions that. The organization piece really, really difficult. So essentially I'm like a supportive presence in people's lives to help them [00:03:00] feel like they have it together just a little bit more. Um, I do, I have in the past done some in-home organization, but by and large, I mostly now do education and I do one-on-one support with people. So how would you, um, differ from a life coach? Because I think that was coming hot, right? The initial thing I saw when I, I saw like life skills specialist. Yeah, well, like as a, as a therapist, the term life coach like makes me like breakout in hives. Um, yeah, actually I see the hives now for using that. Yeah. I'm like, oh God. Uh, which, which is just like a, that's just a professional bias I have because there's. There's lots of people out there doing really good kind of work. Um, life coaches, basically their job is to help you sort of optimize your life goals and wellbeing so they don't work with people on, like they're, they don't work with [00:04:00] people on when things are bad. They work with people on when things are good and they want things to be really, really good and they wanna like fulfill their purpose. I'm more like. You can't remember to take the trash out. What can we do about that? You, mm-hmm. You haven't renewed your car insurance in like six years. Like, how do we do that? Like I am, I'm kind of like cleanup crew more than I am, like life goals and, and thriving. Yeah, and, and like, not, not to be tongue in cheek about the question because I think a lot of life coaches, I don't know if they have a lot of credentials when they go into this kind of position, and I think there's a big spectrum of people that do life coaching. One thing I I noticed about your book, just from the parts I was perusing, is that it's, it almost seems like the next step beyond a therapy. So like, it seems like you're applying a lot of CBT techniques to really granular specific like executive function tasks. So almost the thought that, or the, the name that was coming to mind for me [00:05:00] was like, pragmatic therapy. Mm-hmm. Or something like that. Ooh, that's good. Yeah. I like that. Nice. Put on the phone, dude. All yours. Yeah. Life skill. Life skills specialist and pragmatic therapist pragmatist or something. It flows well. Yeah. I think of what I do as like getting people to the place where they could actually engage in therapy. 'cause all therapists know what it's like to have, and I'm sure you know, psychiatrists do too. Know what it's like to have clients who do really wanna be well and they wanna get better, but they have all this stuff that's not even therapy related, getting in the way. Like they can't remember appointments, they can't get themselves to places, they can't organize their time. They feel overwhelmed by. Tasks in which to prioritize. So I think of like, I'm like helping people just be able to like mm-hmm. Get out the door to where they could actually like engage in the kind of therapy work that they need to, to [00:06:00] do, to be well. So related to this, our icebreaker for today is. One life skill you find yourself most often bringing up in your work with clients or patients or that you find and or the one that you find the most useful to be reminded of for yourself. Um, so that's gonna be your question. I can start because I'm put people on the spot with these questions. Um, I feel like with patience I talk quite a bit about what mindfulness actually is. I'm act trained, uh. And so I think for a lot of, I work with a lot of people with anxiety or eating disorders or OCD, and so one of the, like that's is commitment therapy for those who aren't familiar. Sorry guys. You guys know this. This is a, this is episode 43. If you're just not joining us, act as acceptance commitment. Um, but the, I feel like the. Mindfulness of like what it actually is, bleeds into all the other kind of things I'm trying to help them [00:07:00] do with like distress tolerance or like just moving attention. And some of the, honestly like life skills part that comes up before anything else, like if they're not taking the antidepressant, that's gonna really help the panic attack stop, then it's hard to move in other directions or therapy wise. So I would say that's mine for patients for me. Um. You know this, like anyone who follows me on TikTok knows this. It's having a timer and being like, I have 20 minutes. I'm scared, but I'm gonna do something and I'm going to have a Diet Coke during it, and then I'm gonna be like, good job girl. You did it. So I feel like the idea of avoidance and that it sucks and you gotta keep going, uh, is the one I use for me. Yeah. That's such a, that's such a good one. That's such a good one. I love the timer and like little treat methods. It's, she's got it right there. It's always, it's odd. It's entered the chat. Strapped on. Yeah, just, just tape the carrot to your forehead, you know, like, [00:08:00] like the donkey with the stick. Just, just wear the thing like a backpack. Just wear it. Just, you know, you. Who doesn't love a visual time timer? See it. It's cute too, which I also love. Mm-hmm. Um, I think probably, I mean, I am, I am act trained too. I love an ACT therapist. I'm, I'm, let's go. I know I'm D and I'm DI come from a rural like DBT background too. Dialect, behavioral therapy. So all of these kind of like. For people listening. These are kind of like the newest waves of cognitive behavioral therapy that have come out in the last few years that have really strong mindfulness components. Um, but so because of that, I feel like the life skill that I most often turn to, like you said, is the avoidance. And specifically in what DBT we'd kind of call like opposite action. Meaning like if there's something you're dreading and you're avoiding one to like. To just notice that you're avoiding it, to recognize that you're avoiding it and not, um, [00:09:00] not like, make a whole thing out of that. Like, I think people can really get down into the weeds on like, why, why don't I wanna do this thing? And why don't I feel avoidant? And like, why, why, why, why, why, um, when really we just need to like turn our attention away from like, what is wrong with me towards just like. What is wrong with this task? Like, why don't mm-hmm. Why don't I wanna do it in a really simple way? Um, not, not like dwelling kind of on the self-diagnosis for a minute. Not that there's not time, like a moment for that, but just be like, okay, I really don't wanna do the dishes. Like why is, it's 'cause it's boring. I don't wanna get up from. I'm watching tv. I don't wanna get up. I, um, I wish dishes didn't exist, you know? Mm-hmm. Like, I wish I lived in reality where this wasn't a thing that I had to do. But it's, so I think like, I think avoidance goes, avoidance and exposure, like [00:10:00] goes through everything Yes, that I do. And just like tiny, tiny exposures to things that are scary. So basically exactly the same answer as you, Margaret, were, I feel like I remember you talking about this, like I had heard it and one of the things I love about your TikTok content and missed you when you were on the break writing the book, um, understandably busy, was I think that you had talked about avoidance, but your, your content is so concrete or it gives examples. Like, I think it's easy for people to be like avoidance, bad. But it's a whole other thing for them to be like, see your videos where you're like, I need to deal with this closet and I need to do this and I don't want to, but here's how I'm gonna work through it and not overwhelm myself. And in the book, I really like multiple points. When you kind of talk about, I think sometimes like the philosophy behind what you're talking about in the rest of the book, which is like, what if we don't try to find some optimal version of you and continually set yourself up for failure, but instead, like you're saying. Moving away from what's wrong with me? And [00:11:00] instead asking, is there any way to make this task more doable? And then to use skills to both do it and tolerate whatever is still unpleasant about it. Um, which is just a kinder, I think, approach for a lot of people when they're dealing with something, they may feel a lot of shame about. Yeah. And I think of it as really, um, I mean pragmatic too, because it's like, it's really natural to when you know that your life is like a mess and you mm-hmm. You see that other people see that your life is a mess. It's really easy to just be really focused on like, why am I like this? What is wrong with me? And like. That you can find an answer to that, but the solution to what is wrong with me is like years down the road, it's like, yeah, I could probably fix this, but it's gonna take like at least six months to a year and maybe multiple years to get to a place where like, that isn't wrong with me anymore. But when you just look at the task in front of you, it's like you can usually do something just about one thing at a [00:12:00] time. It's like kind of narrowing your vision. A little bit to tackling problems one at a time rather than like the entire chaos of your life all at once. I don't think I do that much life skills coaching for my patients. I was like trying to reflect on like what life skills I actually like, really pin down with people. I'm like, I talk about cooking, I talk about exercise, but I think the only one that I, that I do consistently though is, um, like navigation, like executive function and like moving around. So San Antonio has. Not that great of a public transport system. And it's very often that people will come to my clinic because they just moved from some, from some Podunk town and outside of Texas and now they're here. And I'm like, what pharmacy is good for you? And they're like, I have no idea. And I'm like, let's Google where you live and we'll try to find a bus route that's close to like close enough to you. I'm like, what do you like better? Walmart, HEB. And they're like, oh, I love HEB. I'm like, like, okay, we're cooking now. You know what I mean? I'm like, okay, you're gonna take a left on this road here and [00:13:00] then go like. Do West, they're like, what am I loose? And Clark, I'm like, sorry, like towards this, towards the Walmart sign. And then take a right at Target and you'll be there. And they're like, okay, cool. You know, like I think that's the most pragmatic, like life skilly stuff I do. And I guess it's, it's opposite of avoidance because these are patients that are pretty motivated. A lot of times they're, you know, coming new to town, they're just trying to figure stuff out, but they're just. Need that like little bit of push with organization, but they're already rearing and ready to go. So I, I, I found that to be pretty rewarding. And I don't, it just feels like plenty of trip. I don't know. What about for you? My, my, oh, the life skills. We just, we just said ours. Yeah. Oh, that I'm, that I'm always reflecting on, yeah. What's yours? Honestly it's, or is your opposite Probably it's, it's cooking or meal prepping. I think that's what I get reminded of the most. Yeah. So I made butter chicken last night and I was actually, I was thinking a lot about it [00:14:00] being a mindfulness exercise, which I don't know if the episode will be out by now, but we were, um, just talking with another nutritional psychiatrist about kind of practical ways to. Overcome depression and cook and find meals and things like that. And we were, we were talking about how cooking is one of those rare activities where you have to be in the moment while you're doing it. And that it does encourage mindfulness. And I think that's like the best way that I will ever achieve mindfulness is when I don't know that I'm actually doing mindfulness. So cooking. Exercising, uh, improv is something I've been doing too recently, which is also a mindfulness exercise, and you have to be very present while you're doing it. So as long as it's just not labeled mindfulness, Preston will willingly participate in it. So I think that's, I guess, mindfulness and also meal preparation, the skills I think about for myself. Cool. Yeah. Um, we're gonna take a quick break and then we get back. We're going to talk about your book, some of the kind of core pillars of it, as well as. Your story of transitioning your [00:15:00] work, because I think we touched on a little bit already how existing in the system helping people with mental health conditions versus like kind of being able to do some of these concrete steps that need to happen can be really fulfilling. So we will be right back. So we are gonna talk about your book Tidying the Abyss, which is out by the time this episode comes out. But what's the exact release date? Yeah. November 11th. Exciting. Veteran's Day. How do you feel? I know it is Veterans Day. Uh, I'm so, um, I'm so excited and so curious. Like this is my first book. I, every step of the process, I have not known what to expect the entire time. So speaking of like mindfulness exercises that you don't know that you're doing until you're actually doing them, I'm like mm-hmm. In just in a, a forced mode of acceptance and openness because I. I am, I have no [00:16:00] idea what to expect when the book comes out. Um, if it's gonna do well, if nothing's gonna happen. So, but the, the process of writing it was, um, really, uh, I don't know, I don't wanna say life changing, but it did change my life in a lot of ways. So I'm very, I'm very excited to like, put a bow on that and have it out in the world. Yeah. How long have you been working on the book for? It's been about three years that I've been working on it. And it kind of went, it went like the other way around where a agent found me through my work online and asked if I was interested in writing the book, which at first I was like, this is fake for sure. Uh, scam. Um, and then it, then it wasn't like, um, twist of fate. So I did a book proposal then yeah, then went through the process of, um, of querying. And so it's been a good three years that I've been working on it, or more like, I feel like I've [00:17:00] just, like, time is a flat circle with book writing. Like I don't even remember a time when I like wasn't working on this. This being has always been there in some form. Um, what do you hope, before we go into components of the book, what do you, who, who do you, who did you imagine writing the book for? That's a really good question. Um. I think I imagined writing it for my clients. Mm-hmm. And I also imagined writing it for myself and I, I imagined writing it for all the kind of loved ones in my life who. Just had times like I've been this person too who had times when they just like were a mess and just could not get it together. Like we all know what it is to be this person that just feels like you're like a leech on everyone around you. And we know what it's like to like have. A loved like this in our life where you're like, wow, things have really fallen apart for you, and like they're going really bad. [00:18:00] So I, I was thinking of people like in that, in that space when I was writing it and like thinking about what would I wanna hear at that time of my life because like the, a lot of the work that I'm doing now came out of a time like that in my life. So I think that's how, who I had in mind. I was gonna ask if you don't, I mean, I know it's in the book, but if you wouldn't mind sharing, I feel like that was one of the things we had, um, someone who deals with chronic pain on for an episode last season. And I know one of the things that people experience, um, in getting healthcare or getting services, getting mental healthcare when they have a chronic illness or chronic conditions that are, you know, invisible. Um. Is kind of invalidation in many different forms and I feel like you starting the book with your own story, your family, your kind of you as a couple story of being very honest and being like, that's not me, I'm super organized. And then having [00:19:00] experiences that made you empathize, made it. I could imagine someone reading this and feeling like, okay, this is like safe for me to go. Forward and keep reading 'cause this person understands. So why did you share your story, I guess, in chapter one? And if you wanna say a little bit more about you before and then you after. I feel like this is also tied in with how your work changed too. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I felt like I had, I kind of have to tell the story of what happened to even begin to explain how I would go from being like a, a. Stone cold clinical social worker to having this like odd liminal career, um, which I really enjoy and love. But, um, you know, like pre pandemic, I had been in the field for, I, I graduated from ma my master's really young. That's like something that's, that's worth mentioning. I, I mean, I was out of grad [00:20:00] school by the time I was 22, so, um. Like they really like pipeline social workers to get out into the field really fast. And it's not that, I mean, that's just what's needed because they need workers. So I had been, by the time I was 30, I'd been working for. A pretty long time, and I was feeling pretty burned out. Um, and then just like everything went wrong, like my, my husband, right as he was about to defend his dissertation, got diagnosed with ms, which was like a really big, uh, shock. Like, and speaking of the medical system and not really knowing what was wrong, if, if anybody's known, someone who's been diagnosed with ms, it's never like a sudden thing where like they're fine and suddenly there's, they have ms. It's like they spend like five years being like, I think something's wrong, and like getting wronger and like really, really wrong until finally someone is like, [00:21:00] oh, that's multiple sclerosis. So that. Launched me into life as a caregiver. Um mm-hmm. Though he still is able to work, which is awesome. Um, I, it was necessary for me to do a lot to support his recovery. Um, yeah. So I was like, burned out therapist. Now I have this big. Responsibility at home. And then I started to feel really, really sick as well. And it was like a real panic moment because I was like, he's sick. I can't be sick. Like only right, only one of us can be sick. Um, and it was a real, I mean, it was like years and years of um, probably as many. People have experienced like trying to figure out what exactly was wrong. And, and before I, when I was writing the book, I hadn't figured out what was wrong. I kind of didn't really know. I just, you know, I'd go to a specialist and they'd diagnose me with something and send me to another specialist [00:22:00] and they'd diagnose me with something else and I'd get treated and it would help kind of, but not really. Mm-hmm. And this whole time. Obviously I'm like a reasonable person, so it occurs to me like, is this a little psychosomatic? Like am I have, I like just created an illness. Internal gaslighting too. I know. Well, I mean, I mean it was like apropos any better explanation from a medical professional. Like I had to, I had to consider that. Um, but I just didn't really quite feel. That out of touch with reality. I was like, no. I think mm-hmm. This is real. I just don't know what it's, um, so I, I really needed to take a break from being a therapist and I really loved my clients. I just, mm-hmm. Physically I was doing so badly, like I was not able to maintain [00:23:00] wakefulness for. The whole day I was, would just like fall asleep. Lots of like passing out episodes and I really hurt like my every, yeah, my whole body hurt. Everything hurt, just all the like vague complaints. So, um, but what I noticed is that I, this was very weird, but like I felt a lot better when I was cleaning. Um, and I don't know if it was just because I was like dissociating completely. I'm just like totally disconnected from my body as I like scrub this bathtub. But I started to do it like as a, as like a coping skill. When I would feel really bad or I'd really be hurting, I'd be like, okay, let me get up and go find something to clean because for some reason I feel better when I'm doing this. And then it also. When it was done, I was like, okay, well I accomplished some something concrete in the world and that like made the day feel worthwhile. So that's kind of how I got down [00:24:00] the like cleaning pipeline where I just thought maybe I could just clean for people and like one of my best friends told me, she was like, you know what I wish when I was depressed is that there's someone I could call to just like show up at my house. Just like clean it up for me and like put me out on the porch with like a glass of water and I was like, mm-hmm. I'd love to be that person. Like I'd be, yeah, I'd be good at that. And, and, and that would be so much easier than like running a, like three month DBT protocol with someone not knowing if it was gonna work and that they'd actually feel better at the end of it. Like. It would be feel more rewarding to just make someone feel better right now, like in, within the next hour. Right? So that, that's kind, that's how I got into this, like cleaning and life skills kind of space. Then once I started, the coaching started and it just kind of grew organically from [00:25:00] there. And what made you start posting on TikTok? Um, my, my sister-in-law is in marketing. Uh, imagine marketing is like all bright, shiny letters and she suggested it and I was like, uh, I don't, I don't think I wanna do that. She was like, no, it'll be good. Like, it'll help you get, get some customers. At that point I was just thinking, I just wanna clean people's houses who are like sad. That's all. That's liter. That was my only goal. Um, but so much came from TikTok. Like, that was a really good suggestion. Thanks Rachel. You, you were correct. I asked you this when I was messaging you earlier and I'd asked you what topic you would like to talk about from the book. Um, and one of the things you said, so we'll do some, let's do some concrete things and some existential things, which I enjoy. Pairing always. Um, [00:26:00] mm-hmm. I wrote down a couple I liked, but I'm curious like if there's ones in the book or chapters where you feel like, I think this chapter is, or this topic is really gonna be helpful for people, or, I've talked to so many clients about this specific strategy that I know that people should hear this. Um, does anything pop to mind with that question? It's like choosing between all my children, children. Um, pick one. What are ways, I guess, actually let's start here. What are ways, like when you work with people now, I know you said teaching and then sometimes like virtual. We have a couple fictional characters that we were gonna have you coach and cleaning wise. So maybe we should just start there and whatever comes up we can, uh, pull back into like the more conceptual frame. But I feel like often our listeners like this better and I always find learning that doing cases or doing like. Role, role playing, which we do often here as fictional characters helps the most. So I have a character and Preston has one. Um, [00:27:00] I'm a fictional character. Uh, I don't have a specific diagnosis, but I think you'll figure out pretty soon. But I, let's say I've hired you, let, you're coming to my home virtually for the first time. I'll tell you about my problems. Are you down for that? I, I love a staffing session, like, yes. Okay, let's do it. So we'll do, like, I'll keep an eye on time. We'll do one for like four minutes and then we'll talk about what you recommended and what happened. Um, so listeners, this is also for you to be able to hear so that you can hear what it might sound like if you brought some of these concepts a little bit into sessions or just how people who do this work, talk about it. Um, okay. I'm ready. So we both log onto the Zoom. Preston, feel free to chime in as Amanda's assistant during this at any point if you want to, and then we'll switch to you. Oh, happily, please. Preston's a much better actor than I, so excuse my poor acting skills, but Hello? Hi. Well, I [00:28:00] mean, look at it. You can see, you can see how this is, I, I have, I have the driest home in all of the a hundred acre wood. Oh, so sad. Well, why don't you, but I thought you could help. Well, why don't you tell me what's, yeah, yeah. I hope I can. Why don't you tell me what's giving you the most trouble organizationally? Well, I'm tired all the time, and so I feel like I don't know where to start. My tail is always a mess, and so I feel like I can't go out and like. Go get water from the stream or hang out with the other animals. And I don't know where to start. Do I start with my, with my home or with my tail or do I start with all those things I'm behind on? And there's, there's mold growing in my water bucket in my home. So I just don't know where [00:29:00] to start. That's the whole problem. So cute. So a lot of times when. Everything. Everything just seems equally high priority. It can help to kind of zero in on the really, really basic things that are helping you get through the day. So I think of those as like sleet and food. So you said you're really tired? Mm-hmm. Are, do you sleep? Are you getting any sleep? Like what's your sleep wake schedule like? Yeah. I sleep, I maybe sleep a little too much 'cause I'm so tired. But I, I'm, I'm asleep at night, which I've been working on a little better. I think the big one is food because all my water bowl and hay things are dirty, but they build up and now I'm just, I'm disgusted when I even look at them. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. [00:30:00] So, so ior, what I'd like us to do together is take the laptop out to your little, um, water hay situation and start to see what it might feel like to clean up just a little bit of it together. Um, nope, we don't have to have pressure to do the whole thing. Let's just, we can just go, like, investigate the situation and see what it would feel like to do just a little bit. Are we willing to try that? I'm willing to try that. I'm just nervous. It's gonna be like, make me sick. 'cause it's like so mo like I haven't washed it in like two weeks. Yeah, totally. Um, do you have any, do you have, I'm thinking it's like, has like his little donkey face. Do you have any like little, um, surgical masks? Anything that could go over your face? Anything that smells good in your house? Because this, well, yeah, I The candle right here. Let's bring the candle. Okay. We'll tie [00:31:00] right by your face. Thank you for rolling with it. Pretty good representation of what actually happens. No lie. I figured, I figured. I watched me and me and my mom. Shout out Sheila, who, this is her favorite thing is my mom. Uh, she made me watch a lot of HGTV, but, okay. Preston, what did you notice her doing? In terms of skills or like, I guess I can say some of my experience or if you wanna label what you were doing, um, in terms of helping me a kind of depressed donkey, living in a child. Child, but, well, I, I mean, I think she said this out loud, but to reiterate, it was getting down to like the things of daily living. So the stuff that you need to put fuel in the tank so that you can accomplish the other tasks, which. When you're depressed and you're viewing yourself as worthless, may not even be intuitive that they're important for me to like [00:32:00] stabilize my sleep and my eating and drinking out of my water bowl. Um, and then the other thing it, like, maybe this wasn't said aloud, but implicitly, like taking you with the laptop to the place mm-hmm. Where you're gonna focus is like it's accountability. So. You're a little, a little fairy on the shelf, so to speak, now watching, like observing the task. And so I think we, we call this body doubling in another episode, but really just like having someone being present in the room with you to do those things. So it, it's really interesting and powerful how you're able to accomplish that through even something like a virtual session. Yeah. But like, take the laptop with you. Let's do it right now. Is amazing and like anybody can, like, people don't need me to do that. Like if you can, you can find anyone to do that for you, like a friend, you can just text them and be like, will you please get on a Zoom call with me and like, [00:33:00] make me take you to this place in my house and clean it up. Um, it's, it's um, you know, not, it's not the easiest thing to build in community support, but that, that's like a pretty low lift if you have people in your life to build in a little community support. I feel like even things like that explicitly, but also I know people have a lot of shame around their homes or things that they let build up. And even just being like, okay, when I, I'm gonna talk to my friend on the phone when I call her and be like, I'm folding this laundry pile that I've let build up and we laugh about it and keep talking and I do it all. Like there's, there's ways to kind of do it as well that are less direct if people are nervous about it. And I feel like that. Using that kind of, there's someone with me, so I feel less scared, even if they're not aware that I'm like, I'm doing my task, I'm afraid of like, is happening. Right. Yeah. And the like opposite action for shame is like, is like revealing the thing that makes [00:34:00] you ashamed, right? Like if someone sees the horrible, like the. Shame. Shame is just the fear that people will reject you if they see, if they like know what, how you really are. So if you show someone the like, shame filled thing and they don't reject you, it gives you good information of like, actually this is not maybe so charged like I thought it was. Yeah. Mm-hmm. The world didn't explode when I showed my sore spot, when I, when it pinned the tail on. Okay. Preston, are you ready? Yeah, I, I am ready. So I'll, I'll be in a different region of the a hundred acre woods. Um, I guess my, it's my, my mine shaft really. It's a good way to put it, rather than my tree. So I have, I'm, I'm not gonna do an accent for this one, but I have a lot of stuff and I like all of my [00:35:00] stuff and I, it's not, the issue isn't that I don't have energy, it's just that. People keep saying that I need to clean up and my in-laws are coming. Uh, the Mr. And Mrs. Gopher and I, I need, they are mad because they want me to create space for them in the guest bedroom, but the guest bedroom is where I store all my stuff and I actually mm-hmm. This store stuff everywhere. But it's just like, I, I have been needing to get rid of all this stuff, but I just, I can't find a way to get rid of it. Honestly do, do you think you need to get rid of it, or it's just other people saying that you need to get rid of it? I mean, to be honest, I like my stuff. Mm-hmm. It's there for a reason. Um, it's just that other people think I need to get rid of it and then like, yeah, I'd like to have space for them, but I would rather hold onto it if I could. If you had to choose between, like keeping your stuff and having no one come stay with you ever, or like. [00:36:00] Making a little space within the stuff and being able to have people come stay with you. Which one of those options sounds better? Ooh, uh, don't tell me with a good time there. Keeping my stuff and no one has to visit me because I, I was honestly dreading this, this visit from them in the first place. Well, what would be the impact? Like, would it damage any of your relationships if they didn't get to come stay? Like, let's, it'll take worst case scenario. Yeah, like I might get cut out of the will or I might get invited to the, any of the weddings or, or baby showers. They've pretty much said that I need to find a way to integrate with the family again. So it, yeah. I think this is kind of, this trip is like the last straw, so that's, that's why I'm scrambling. Yeah, they've really got you in a corner, don't they? Yeah. Yeah. The tail. So, yeah. So you. You don't super value [00:37:00] doing this, but you kind of need to if you're not gonna like, be ostracized from your entire support system. Does that sound right? Yes. I, I'm being cajoled into this and I'm doing it begrudgingly. Okay. Which is why we're even on the call in the first place. They suggest that I reach out to a specialist. So what I would suggest is a lot of times, um, even if you have a lot of stuff, if we can kind of just like see what you have. Put it into categories and store it in a more efficient way. We can make space without actually getting rid of so much stuff. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Like, it won't be, it won't be like your guest room's completely cleaned out and there's no clutter, but there, there could be enough room for people to stay. It's like, be a little compromised between you and the family. Okay. Well look, let me show you, let's, let's go to the guest bedroom. Yeah. Let's take a look and then I'm gonna do this, like one of, like one of these, these radio shows. This is, this is me walking. [00:38:00] The ASMR season three. Okay, so, so as you can see, um, here's the, here's the, the guest bed. So this is where I like to keep all of my old letters. And then these are my cvs. These are my CVS receipts. These are all the t-shirts that I got from five Ks, um, that I run. These are all the kind of like the gifts and like little trinkets that I've gotten from different medical con. Conferences that I went to. Um, oh, there's, um, there's some of the old candle, um, casings I was thinking about, like, kind of like rem melting down the wax and reusing those. Oh. And then this is my collection of, um, sparkling water bottle. Like, I like the glass can, I guess the, the glass bottles because I was gonna kind of like propagate, um, some pathos in them. And I was like kind of thinking about doing a project with that. But that hasn't really turned into anything. Um, oh. This is my, my bundle of wires. I don't really know where all the, what all the wires are going to, but I'm sure there's some important stuff in there somewhere. [00:39:00] Oh, and then over here's my power tools. As you can see, there's a lot of power. I'm more of a DeWalt guy. Yeah, same. Yeah. Uh, yeah. You got some good stuff. You've got some good stuff. Uh, I think one, one question. You have some stuff you're saving for projects, like about how much of this, like if we had to put a percentage on it, about how much of the stuff that you save, like for projects actually ends up getting to the like completion finish line? Oh, well, I mean, that's a moving target right there. It's hard to tell when you're gonna finish. I, I mean, to be honest, I've been pretty busy with work and I haven't finished a project in a, in a while, but. I'll, I'll get to it. That, that's kind of why I wanna hold onto it. Sure. I'm, I, I am not wanting you to get rid of anything that you don't wanna get rid of. Yeah. But today, if we had to put today as like the fake [00:40:00] finish line, like how much of your mm-hmm. How much of your project stuff is like reaching completion mode? You know, I, I have another project where I want to, to, uh, recycle. Like, uh, I want to be like the leader of the recycling in, uh, my mine shaft mm-hmm. Neighborhood, so I could actually divert some of these Tobo Chico bottles to that that would actually, that would work. So really, I'm not like getting rid of them, I'm just kind of re repurposing them. Yeah. I love that idea. I love that idea. Yeah. Okay. And you know, as, as we go through the stuff, we're just gonna kind of like measure your level of enthusiasm. 'cause a lot of times. Like enthusiasm kind of waxes and wanes. Like sometimes when you save the thing, you're really excited about the project and then when you find this stuff later, it's like not, doesn't really feel the same. And the opposite can also be true. So we're just gonna kind of like take each item as it comes, you know? Honestly, I feel like I probably don't need 15 micro USB cables. I could [00:41:00] probably narrow that down to like one or two. Yeah, I think you're right. I do. I you're right. Kinda looking at this, I mean, because this the, not like. I hate to admit it, but like the bundle of wires does kind of piss me off. Okay. Time. Excellent. Especially concerned. I told you about this 35 minutes ago, Margaret. I was just about to make him get rid of his bundle of wires. That was gonna be a big moment for me to leave our audience on, on the edge. I don't know if gopher's a hoarder, but in this world he is. Hey, you took that artistic license. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I noticed you, uh, rolled with the resistance, as they would say in motivational interviewing. I'm sure we could say that in a different word for each therapy modality, but when he got a little defensive as of his piles, uh, or felt like you were gonna see it, how [00:42:00] his like family was and was kind of projecting that onto you. Am I guarding my piles? Put the pile, don't only touch a damn thing. Um, I noticed that quite a bit. And then he did kind of let his guard down and think about recycling for or joining the recycling committee and donating his water bottles. Yeah. Yeah. My. My goal would be just donate the, to get him to just donate the water bottles without joining the recycling committee because he has too much going on already. But, but like, that comes, that comes in steps that comes in, like unveiling for people where they're like, well, maybe I, maybe I'm not that attached to this project. I'm not that attached to this thing. Actually, if I'm like not holding onto it so tightly, maybe it actually doesn't even matter. Like is a mm-hmm. Is a dynamic that happens a lot. I would say like most of the time, unless people are [00:43:00] like genuine clinical hoarders, in which case they need to be in like clinical hoarding therapy. Not like with me, you know, I don't, I don't know if I'm like representing hoarding disorder perfectly here and I don't think my, my intent wasn't to like, have a, have someone with hoarding disorder, but just someone who has like, kind of tendencies around and like mm-hmm. A sentimental attachment to their stuff. Um, and, and I think like it, this, the, the guest bedroom is an exaggeration, but I think a lot of us have junk drawers or places where you're like, oh, this could be cute for X, y, z idea. And then you just kind end up throwing it there and then it grows and you don't get around to getting rid of it, and you still get attached to the hope that you'll do something with it someday. It's very like tied up with identity too. It can be. It's like I wanna be the kind of person who would do things with these old jars. You know? Like I wanna be the per kind of person who has that kind of time and energy and initiative. And we are just not so often that person. [00:44:00] And that's like a, that's like a real acceptance moment. To be like, yeah, theoretically I could, I could do something with all these like spring water things, but, but like can and should and will are all different things. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Which I, I thought like, it was interesting how you, you immediately adjusted to my level and most of the focus was on evoking insight into whether or not things should even go in the first place. So like similarly to how you were triaging with Margaret of like, what priority should we start working on? This wasn't necessarily like, what should we start working on? Well, well, what needed to be worked on was apparent, but it's like what objects are are even like worth discarding or not? And, and let's take a step back. Why is even the task of discarding objects a worthy endeavor in the first place? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Often, like I, I have a lot of clients come to me with [00:45:00] that and who have been told by their family members and loved ones like, you've gotta get rid of some of this shit. Like you're, this is out of control. And a lot of times they just need someone to say like, I get it. I get why you're saving these things. Like they are kind of cool or your reasoning. Maybe it's not what I would do, but like your le your reasoning has logic to it. Like, you're not being crazy to save all these CVS receipts. Like, I see where you're, I see where you're going with this, you know, and then they usually feel, once we start decluttering, they usually feel like really attached to the first few items. And I'll be like, cool. Just put it in the maybe pile, put it in the maybe pile. And about halfway through they're like, get rid of it. Get rid of it. Get rid of it. Mm-hmm. I don't want any of this. Like, I hate all of this. I want it all gone. And I'm like, okay. Yeah. Just, um, they just need a chance to like get through the resistance to, to see like, oh, it, it doesn't like threaten my identity as a messy person to, to like [00:46:00] clean out this room. It doesn't like change who I am. If we're gonna take a quick break and then when we come back we're gonna talk a little bit about the existentialism of chores and do our q and a from our audience who have questions, uh, for you. So we will be right back. So before I go into some of the questions people had on Instagram, um, I wanted to ask you about one of the concepts in the book, which you kind of go into, like existentialism or meaningfulness behind domestic. Work and domestic labor, um, or kind of how people pursue, I think, their values as well, or you locate the values with them and, and how these acts coincide with it. And I wonder if you could just say a little bit more of how you start those conversations with people to help them think about how chores might have meaning for them or a different meaning than they had before. Yeah. Um, usually I notice it in the kind of like. Common [00:47:00] refrain that we most of us have said in our life, which is just like, I don't wanna have to do this. Like, I don't want these responsibilities to be my life. Um, because there's, there's a lot there. If you scratch the surface of that, there's like. In act, we say like, I don't wanna have what I have. Right? It's like, I don't wanna have these responsibilities that are mine. I want something different, but. But you can't have something different, and so you get stuck in this suffering space. There's, there's also, I mean, chores are suffering. They're not fun. A lot of times they're, they're not easy. They're, yeah. Like they're there, there is enjoyment to find in them, but by and large, like they're boring, they're tedious, um, on, on their own. Um, they're repetitive and they, if you. I have any kind of awareness [00:48:00] of like, I'm gonna die someday. Which like, which I do when I do my shoe. Yeah. Well, but it's like, it's like, oh my God, I'm gonna die at some indeterminate time in the future. And I've spent like maybe 30% of my life. Folding laundry like that is so terrifying that I'm like wasting my one wild and precious life. Just like doing chores, you know? Um, Mary Oliver, shout out listeners. So yeah, shout out Mary. Um, so miss you. I miss, yeah. RIP Um, though Mary, Mary did chores too. Mary did chores too. She did. She was chore boss. Yeah. Yeah. And so like. There's that resistance to like suffering, the suffering and the repetitiveness and the like, having what you don't wanna have ness of life. Um, that gets played out I think a lot of times in, in chores. And it gets, that [00:49:00] dynamic gets played out in our relationships and get, it gets played out in families. And there's all of the societal stuff to get into too of like if you, um. If you're really uncomfy with the idea of like spending all of you know, your precious time doing chores, well, can I just like, make someone less powerful than me, do it for me and like rationalize in my head that that's like cool and okay because there for some reason, like less smart or interesting than me. And so it's like, all right, for them to spend all their time doing these tedious things where I, whereas I am like. Smart and like above it, you know, like that, that all gets mixed in there. Um, mm-hmm. So I think when I'm working with people, what I like to do is just try to kind of like pull out their underlying beliefs about, about domestic labor and who should be doing it, about suffering and what that [00:50:00] means for them about their non-acceptance and try to find. Some route into accepting that this is a part of life in a good, in a good way. Like we get to, we get to do these things, not we have to do these things. You go for the ultimate reframe. I, I do. Yeah, that's, I'm like, you say, listen, we're I'm gonna die. You're gonna, you're gonna, you're gonna die. And I bet when that happens, you'll wish that you, um, had a little bit more time to, you know, cook your butter chicken, which you thought was stupid at the time, but now seems like really precious. Yeah. I mean, like doing chores with people you like or like errands, I think end up being like some of my most fond moments. My dad is on this genealogy kick and. He like told us the other day that our great-great-great grandfather, like 10 times removed, was one of the founders of Rhode Island. Oh. And I was kinda like, I get at like, I think it's somewhere in my blood [00:51:00] because I do like doing chores. Yeah. I can be that like little puritan part of me that's like, this is the key to a meaningful life as I'm like, trudging down the alley with the trash or something and like, look at the yard and I'm like, this yard needs to be raked more thoroughly. I don't know, like you, you could see it as a, as a liberating experience. Which is, which is enjoyable in itself for me. One of the big things that made me, I think, open to different therapy modalities was like in college, being a theology major and reading the rule of St. Benedict, which is like, is this teeny tiny little red book and it's like. Let the monks have some wine. Not too much, but at least some wine. Everything in moderation. Make sure they're doing their sweeping, make sure they're going on their walks and talking to each other. And I was just like, yeah, let the monks have their wine and do their chores like, and it's like this is a path to spiritual enlightenment and community. And it's like, mm-hmm. Maybe, probably just, yeah, everything in moderation, including [00:52:00] moderation. I, I love that detail about spiritual communities and like, sometime I'll tell you about, like, when I was thinking about this career change moment, my other route was like, maybe I'll just get a, um, master's in divinity. Like that was the other classic, classic like Canon event. But I love, I love this thing in, in like spiritual communities where people are living together for the purpose of spiritual enlightenment and like they're doing chores, they're doing chores, they're praying, meditating, they're annoyed. They're like, um, yeah, my, my, my brother over there like, won't, is like mopping the floor badly and like Yeah. And like, I don't wanna take the trash out again. Soul. And they're trying to find a way, like be, yeah. They're trying to find a way to like, be cool about it, just like we all are on the day to day in our homes. You can catch the next [00:53:00] part of this on Patreon. It's patreon.com/happy Patient pod. Question. We, I've been asking when I, when, when Preston has been passenger princessing, uh, in my episodes I do like when people end a podcast and say, what is one thing you'd like people who listen to this episode to take away? Um, and then I'll ask a second question about where they can find you. But first up, what's one thing that you would like people to take from listening to this episode? Um, I think it would be to take your struggles with tours seriously. Without just feeling like you're doomed to fail. Like a lot of times I think when people really struggle with life skills, they're like, they get to the place where they're like, oh, I'm so bad at this. Especially if they're on in online community. So like, I'm so bad at this and there's all these other people who are bad at it, and that's just my identity. I'm just bad at it. But like go one step beyond that to like. There are things that you [00:54:00] can like take your struggle seriously and also know that there's lots of small things you can do to make your life feel more manageable. Um, and like those are really worth paying serious attention to. I love that. I think that's great. Do you wanna do the outro? Oh, wait. First time, take it away. First person. Where, where can they, where can they find you? Where in this wild world of internet, where can they, can they find you? Where can they find me? They can find you in your book. Where can they like, honestly, I hate being found, but no, I do want people find me, me and your dms. Like a year ago, Hey, you're writing a book, do you wanna podcast? And I was like, oh, I haven't checked my dms in like three years. Like, I do not read them because I don't wanna be reached. Um, I'm trying to work on. You can find me, um, on TikTok and Instagram at Nesting Your Life. You can find me on my website at www.nestingyourlife.com. [00:55:00] Um, I am not currently taking coaching clients, but if you wanna read about the approach, you can read the book. Um, and I am available also for like trainings and speaking engagements through my website. One more time. That's Tidying the Abyss by Amanda Stuckey Dotson. And it's coming out November 11th. So mark your calendars. Boom. Thank you everyone for listening. Um, we are gonna be including your questions more thoroughly from now on. So this, this is a mark of a, a changing habit that we hope to see. Um, as always, we, we appreciate your feedback and your inquiry and your engagement. Um, you guys are really what makes this whole show tick. So I just wanna take a moment and say thank you for, for bringing us along every morning or afternoon or evening, however y'all listen to us. Thank you guys so much as always, for your comments, your reviews on the podcast, and then the questions that you submit on Instagram, uh, today. For this episode, I use the questions [00:56:00] to do the outline of the episode, which we use for prep, and then for today, the Patreon part is the extended q and a. The questions won't always be on the Patreon, but the questions and your guys' input always help us make. The episode's as useful as possible to you, and then whatever we can't fit in the regular episode, we're putting into the bonus parts on Patreon to allow a little extra, especially for people who are really engaged and are asking questions frequently. Yeah, just because we don't explicitly answer a question verbatim. Um. Doesn't mean that we're not trying to find a way to answer it in either our exploration or like our research of the topic. So I, I want you to know if you do believe something, it's probably getting read and we're taking into account however we can, you can always find Margaret and I on. Our respective social media platforms. I'm at its Prerow Margarets at Badar every day, where you can just talk to the podcast directly at how to be patient on Instagram or through our parent company, human content on IG and [00:57:00] TikTok at Human Content Pods. If you wanna see full episodes in video, you can find 'em on my YouTube channel at its prerow, if not anywhere you get your podcasts. Apple, Spotify, our website. How do be patient pod.com. It's all the same. You're gonna be hearing me and Margaret in your ears. Thanks again for listening. Yeah, Bo, both years hopefully. We're your hosts, Preston and Ro and Margaret Duncan. Our executive producers are me, Preston, Roche, Margaret Duncan, will Flannery, Kristin Flannery, Aron Korney, Rob Goldman and Shanti Brook. Our editor and engineer is Jason Portizo. Our music is Bio Mayor Ben V. To learn more about our program, disclaimer and ethics policy, submission verification, and licensing terms on our HIPAA release terms, go to how do patient pod.com or reach out to us at how do patient@humancontent.com with any questions or concerns. How to be patient is a human content production,[00:58:00] how to be patient. Thank you for watching. If you wanna see more of us or if you wanna see, this is lilac. She's my cat. She's gonna be waving her hand at one of the floating boxes, which will lead to more episodes. Lilac Point to the other episodes. Lilac doesn't know what the internet is, but I swear they're there. They, they probably exist for real, but in the meantime, I'm just gonna pet lilac and then. I'm gonna go dance in the [00:59:00] background.