Alyson Stoner: What Happens When You Grow Up in the Spotlight?

Alyson Stoner: [00:00:00] I think a lot of us, when we, from afar, when we see child performers, we get that depiction in the media of this like reckless entitled, quote unquote narcissistic, uh, young person. Um, but in reality, if you were in a room full of yes people as a child, and you had a bunch of adults who never demonstrated any kind of boundary, who gave you excessive access to material goods, to wealth, to status power, um, you would not have a blueprint for healthy and normal boundaries.

Preston: So welcome back to How to Be Patient. We are here with a very special guest today. Someone who needs no introduction, but I'll still do my best. We have Alyson Stoner who has gone by, I, I think many starting roles, um, from the Eminem Music video. [00:01:00] Actually just Lose It. The White Girl from Missy Elliott Music video, um, from Sarah Baker, um, camp Rock, cheaper by the Dozen, and then from Camp Rock as well.

And then now 

Margaret: Mike's super short show 

Preston: also. Yeah, 

Margaret: I don't know, did you watch Disney also just 

Preston: dance? I didn't, I didn't watch Mike's super short show. No. Step Up, 

Margaret: not Just Dance. Oh, 

Preston: just, that was the game I played from a 

Margaret: We Game just Dan. 

Preston: So, uh, but anyways, Alyson, thank you for being here today. 

Alyson Stoner: Thank you so much for having me.

It is also a joy to hear people's reference points and I, I have to give you credit Preston, you accidentally told the truth, which is that I did collaborate with the Just Dance video game. Um, oh, many, many years ago. So it was just a second life in the digital influencer space, which is a whole story on, in and of itself.

Preston: One thing I really loved about reading your book was kind of seeing that you've been a fixture in my social media or like entertainment [00:02:00] diet my entire life. And I think a lot of it I didn't realize too. I was like, oh, like this is you here in this video. And then like, I'd be reading a chapter and like, go look up the video and like immediately see what your dance looked like.

And, and then another thing that I was familiar with. So it, it was kind of like I got to relive my childhood the way I experienced it through entertainment, um, alongside your book. So that was a lot of fun for me and, um, I'm getting ahead of myself here. So, so one of the reasons why Alyson is on the show with us today is because they have recently written a memoir called Semi Well Adjusted.

Despite literally everything, and this is kind of the story of, um, the rise to stardom and then what life was like in Hollywood and now how things have transitioned into adulthood, 

Alyson Stoner: and it has a big old semi at the start of it on purpose. How long have you been working on this book for? Actually, I've been working with an outline of the book since 2018.

I [00:03:00] started collecting research across, um, media culture, child development, and just observing industry protocols. Um, and I wanted whatever I would write to be informed by, you know, multiple fields, um, and disciplines. And, and then of course there's the task of actually organizing all the details of your life from start to finish into 90,000 words and picking and choosing, um, which themes you're going to center and what, what perspective, what point of view you're gonna take.

Um, and that decision making process wow, was a lot more fraught than I expected. I shared this with a few people, but I, I actually uncovered. Completely new information about my own childhood, three quarters of the way through the first draft. Wow. So I had to reexamine things, um, and, and I connected dots differently.

And in [00:04:00] fact now I'm, it feels more like a living document, um, than something that I had, you know, long reflected upon and was ready to pen. Um, so I'm pretty nervous that this is now in ink. It is no longer living. It's, it's 

Margaret: got a permanent footprint of a sort. 

Alyson Stoner: Yeah. 

Margaret: I mean, I think for our listeners, you know, coming in, I think one thing that we don't really have as mental health professionals in our field, and I'm not aware of a ton of people in the field besides very niche experts, is this question of.

Child stardom and mental health development, especially as child stardom. I think over the last year, the conversations around what abuses were happening that maybe the public wasn't aware of, as well as what it means to be a child star in a social media age. From family v bloggers. Yes. All the way to children having pictures of them put online or kind of having, you know, for every family vlogger there is, there's gotta be many people who have maybe tried to do that and put media out about their kids.[00:05:00] 

And I think that your memoir is first of all just beautifully written in a really, you know, intimate story of all that you've already been like done and been through in life. And a look inside. What is it like to be a child who's trying to grow up while also having scrutiny and camera and, you know, fame thrust upon you?

Alyson Stoner: Well, you're bringing up a really salient point in that the funnel for, you know, the number of children who are experiencing this kind of publicity or visibility is now substantially broadened because of the digital landscape. And just like kids getting into the entertainment industry who are not provided any kind of resource or on more onboarding manual that lets you know this is what you're getting into.

Mm-hmm. Um, the digital landscape doesn't have some, you know, the. Ubiquitous digital literacy course that we're all taking. And so you've got parents who perhaps mean very well when they [00:06:00] post this adorable photo, but they're not versed in what it means to share data. What, what privacy issues might service, what it means for their young one to, you know, desire to be able to express themselves without being permanently relegated to that embarrassing photo every time.

You know what, as they age and get older and, and, and wanna look cool in front of friends. So there are a lot of, um, themes from the book that actually do apply to I think, larger cultural conversations. Um, and that was important for me to surface because I don't need people to understand my point of view, just to be heard and validated.

Mm-hmm. There are. I think really critical insights we can draw from this microcosm of child stardom. Um, and we can extrapolate that to, you know, other areas of child autonomy, child rights, um, and just like the cultural significance of how we view children, um mm-hmm. [00:07:00] In the context of society. There's a lot, a lot to mine here.

Mm-hmm. 

Preston: Yeah. And I think your, your story, um, is not unique. Like it's, it, it's extremely, um, personal and unique to you, but the, the, when you distill it down, it's a relationship between someone and their mom and relationship between someone in fame. 

[music]: And 

Preston: kind of the, the dynamic of injecting fame, which I think you described as a drug.

And I think it's a really beautiful way, um, to classify it and mix it into the family dynamics. And that's something that a lot of people are dealing with. And so I, I think I could see people using this almost as like a roadmap for how to navigate their own uncertainty because you've. As you said, have mind a lot of that, uh, uncertainty and, and organized it in a way that like people can follow.

Alyson Stoner: I appreciate that and I love that you said that it wasn't unique because my experience was not the quote unquote exception to the rule. All of the challenges and problems that people observe, [00:08:00] you know, young performers in the spotlight going through, it's absolutely measurable. It's, it is repeated. It has been a part of this, you know, industry narrative for over a century, and it was, it, it felt like it was up to me to combine my previous lived experience as the performer and now my positionality as a mental health practitioner to help people understand, you know, we don't.

I think we're ready as a society to graduate beyond just sensationalized, memoirs and documentaries. Now we, we wanna look at the system, what is happening behind the curtain, that this is something where we can use data to improve, you know, our interventions. Um, this child stardom happens to be very niche, so I know that it's not like people are running to, uh, go study it.

But, um, and I do wanna give the credit, I, when I mention that fame has addictive properties, it's [00:09:00] actually based on Donna Rockwell's, uh, paper on the phenomenology of fame. So, you know, this is backed by research at this point. It's not just, um, uh, you know, a metaphor for, for, you know, drama sake. You know, I, we had, um, a.

Margaret: We have so many questions for you about the book, about the process, and what we plan to do listeners, is go through kind of an arc in three parts. But before we do that, we always start with an icebreaker with our guests. And one of the themes in your book is kind of reclaiming creativity, um, as someone coming into adulthood after being a performer, struggling with perfectionism in many different ways, and also being lauded for all of your success.

And, you know, talent, hard work in the performance and creativity spaces. And my account name on TikTok is Bad art Every day, uh, which is a glib reminder to myself, but with this creativity part of your book. Our icebreaker is when was the last time, or what was the last like, creative thing you did or bad [00:10:00] art you did That was just for the sake of creativity itself.

Do you not like that question? 

Alyson Stoner: Those 

Margaret: listening? We just had up you. 

Alyson Stoner: Well, you want me to talk about, um, the, the mess and I, I appreciate that there's gonna be plenty of it in 

the book, so might as well warm you up now. Um hmm. Bad art that I made, you know, I have a loved one who had a birthday and it's been years since I have been in the studio writing music.

I stepped away from most parts of the industry on purpose and I'm mostly grateful for that. Um, but in this case, I remembered that music once upon a time was a way to, um. A way to articulate something that I didn't feel my, you know, just written word or verbal communication, um, could, could accomplish.

And so for a loved one, I, I wrote a song for their birthday. Um, and I tried [00:11:00] to sort of distill the, the big events that had happened in their life, uh, leading up to that point. And, and, you know, paint the second verse painted a vision of what the coming years could look like now that they're making all of these wonderful changes.

Mm-hmm. Um, and then I. Opened up the recording program and the perfectionist kicked in. Mm-hmm. 

And 

I started recording take after take after take after take. And I was like, this person is not even in the arts. They will not judge. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Whatsoever. Um, and I ended up not sharing it with them. Mm-hmm.

I sang, uh, you know, bits and pieces of it for them. Um. And then, you know, that's, I think their birthday just passed again and I thought, do I need to, do, I need to follow through on this? So that's kind of like, it's swirling in the back of my mind. Um, at some point I would love for them to hear an imperfect [00:12:00] song 

that is full of love and appreciation for who they are.

I love 

Margaret: that. And I also like this tiny vignette of being connected. I think that art as a gift is like such a way for people as adults back into their creativity because they're like, I'm just doing this because this person will like it. Like, I'm making this cake and I got too into it for my friend. I'm doing, you know, you wrote a song like, and then the second part of that vignette is the perfectionism coming in.

And that can not just for people who've been professional performers or are professional performers, but for, for all of us where it's like, well, who am I to take up space in this way? If it's not perfect preaching it, 

Preston: I know my advice. Doesn't matter much hug. I think you should release it. Your competition is like and many more on channel four.

Are you one, are you two, are you three? Are you four? So I'm like, I have no doubt that you'll crush the competition as far as like tailored birthday. That's what, sorry. I mean, [00:13:00] it won't be as, as other people is a beautiful process and we should all celebrate it. 

Alyson Stoner: I love hearing you in stereo. It's like the angel and devil, except you both are angels just of different, in different categories.

Preston: We get, we get like the little brother, big sister. Um, 

Margaret: that's true there. Someone at a conference said that I gave, I, I gave mother to Preston. He doesn't like that one. 

Preston: No. 

Margaret: Okay. Preston, what was the last bad art you've made? 

Preston: Um, well first I don't make bad art. 

Margaret: Uh, you said that to me off. 

Preston: Yeah. 

Margaret: I go 

Preston: back to differ.

I guess. I, I think. I rarely, and I, I think, I wish I would change this about myself. I rarely sit down and be like, I'm doing art now. Like, I don't like, see that as like a, a set process for myself. But I, if I reflect on it, I do a lot of art throughout the day, whether it's like trying to make coworkers laugh or like doodles on my, like, rounds sheets.

But I would say the last thing I did was in my latte. So every day I try to [00:14:00] make like a little bit like different or better latte art. And it's, it's kinda like my horoscope to my friends. So like if I make a little leaf or like a heart or something else and it gets, and it like looks good, I'm like, oh, this is gonna, the group chat, everyone's gonna see the latte from today.

And like, actually just 'cause I just got off work. I made a latte to wake myself up and then I was very proud of my, my leaf. So that was my, my bad art for today. And then I drank it. I've been dressed. 

Alyson Stoner: I love 

that. That's right. Consumable art. Love it. Mm-hmm. 

Preston: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Do you ever eat your art Margaret? 

Margaret: I used to take cake decorating classes.

So yeah, that's, uh, but then it got too intense and I got perfectionist about it, and every time someone has a birthday now I'm like, I, I have to do this store-bought or nothing at all. Yeah, yeah. I'm like, I'm stressed. No, I feel like I play guitar every morning and it's for no reason other than I just like it.

Um, why are you making that face? Don't get your harmonica out. I'll like harm. I'll kill 

Preston: you. [00:15:00] This was a problem on previous episodes, but sorry, we, we have an important guest. I won't get out. The harmonica 

Margaret: won't get out. Your harmonica or your puppet that you, well, 

Preston: anyways, Margaret, 

Margaret: the 

Alyson Stoner: floor, yours. I did see the puppet by the way.

I have watched episodes. 

Margaret: That's our legacy. Legacy Preston. That was the first one I clicked on. Oh no, you were like, why did my team have me on this? 

Alyson Stoner: No, no. I just said, I'm gonna hold this somewhere suspended mid-air while I find some other concrete examples 

to inform. 

Margaret: I'm 

gonna hold this loose. My understandingly.

Yeah, yeah. Hold it tightly, loosely, tightly, loosely. My throat suddenly 

is hurting. 

I have a fever. No, we're here. We're good. Everything's fine. Like 

so far. 

Preston: Well segueing now into our break and then when we come back we will talk about the book.

Margaret: Hey, Preston, what does the sound remind you of? [00:16:00] Oh, 

Preston: God. It, it makes me think about being on call. It's the pager. 

Margaret: Okay. Well, it's not my pager, but it is equally stressful as the timer I use for studying. 

Preston: Oh, we got a Pomodoro queen over here. 

Margaret: Do you know what is made studying Less stressful, though? 

Preston: What 

Margaret: Now, you know, psych, you familiar?

Preston: Am I familiar? I, I use nine nosy for my in-training exams. Are, are we talking about the same thing? That excellent resource that has thousands of questions with associated flashcards, organized content in a user-friendly way. 

Margaret: You use it for pride. I'm using it for the board exams. But yes, we are talking about the same resource.

We, 

Preston: we can use it for both ao 

Margaret: Ready to take your exam prep to the next level? Go to now, you know, psych.com and enter the code. Be patient at checkout for 20% off. That's now, you know, psych.com. 

Preston: Hey, so I wanna talk to you about this new podcast I think every clinician should be aware of. It's the sepsis spectrum from Sepsis Alliance, and it's done by this great critical care nurse, Nicole Kubic.

Margaret: You may be asking why are two psychiatrists talking about sepsis? But if you've spent any time, uh, in the hospital where [00:17:00] psychiatrists or mental health practitioners go, you know that whenever someone's mental status is altered, we can be called and. Not knowing the signs of sepsis, whether that's in the ICU, the ED or other places in the hospital, can mean that we're missing things alongside the team for things that'll really impact our patients.

Preston: Yeah, I mean, delirium comes on quick and fast, and you have to keep it on your differential. It's hit me on the, the inpatient psych floor and mm-hmm. Even for nurses that work in mental health and don't think they're gonna come across this stuff, it, it's gonna come across you. So it, it's important just to, to keep it on your radar and I think this is a great resource for it.

So if you want, you can listen to the sepsis spectrum wherever you get your podcasts, or you can watch it on Sepsis Alliance's YouTube channel. 

Margaret: To learn how you can earn free nursing CE credits just by listening, visit sepsis podcast.org. That's S-E-P-S-I-S podcast.org for more information.

Preston: And we're back from our jaws break to talk about semi well adjusted [00:18:00] despite literally everything. So, um, as we kind of flow through this first third of the book, which is really Alyson, your adolescence, and I think you started performing at this IMTA convention in New York at age six, if I remember that correctly.

Mm-hmm. So 

Margaret: that's, I'm sorry, Preston, I'm gonna correct you. It's early childhood years, not adolescent early Oh gosh. Early childhood years. No, just to ground people. So like it's, we, we meet you in the book at like five or six years old. 

Preston: Yeah. Margaret's going into fellowship and child adolescent psychiatry.

So she's just gonna dunk on me for this whole part. Actually, Margaret, why don't you lead? This is your, I just don't want, if I was listening to the podcast, 

Margaret: I would be like, okay, they're a teenager when we start and they're mm-hmm. You're, you're not, you're like five or six. Very true. 

[music]: Very true. 

Margaret: Um, I guess we've talked a little bit already in this episode about your story, but I wonder if you wanna start.

Just by giving our audience who maybe are less familiar with your work or who were not raised on the Disney Channel in the way that Preston and I were, um, kind of do you come from a background that was [00:19:00] in Hollywood? How did you end up in this world so young? Um, I'm sure it's hard to summarize that in in that quick of a question, but just to ground us, how you got there.

Alyson Stoner: Yes. And first and foremost, I never expect anyone to be familiar with I familiar life, familiar with your, my life or my work. Um, so in a nutshell, I was born in Toledo, Ohio. Think flatland corn fields, uh, folks playing euchre or Remic cube in the den or on the lawn, um, jeopardy or wheel of fortune. On TV in the background, I'm eating SpaghettiOs and buttered toast for dinner.

Um, Toledo is very much a city of industry. It's referred to as the Glass City, and my parents and, um, guardians worked at the Glass manufacturing company. We had absolutely zero affiliation with Hollywood. Um mm-hmm. And I was enrolled at a regular, you know, dance studio when I was three years [00:20:00] old, likely because my older sister also attended the same studio and it meant one stop instead of two for my parents.

Um, and at six I attended this, uh, convention called IMTA, where I met with agents and managers during a week of competitions including acting, dancing, modeling, et cetera. Now, like I said, we had no connection to the industry and at six I had no concept, um, of what a recruitment center was. Um, but they were funneling young people to Hollywood.

Um, I didn't know what Hollywood was. I didn't know what fame was. I didn't dream of, but, but. Upon a very brief trial period, um, I went on several auditions and I ended up, um, booking some jobs quite early. Mm-hmm. And so that simply, um, it microwaved the, the need to ask a lot of questions like, [00:21:00] are we gonna uproot the family to Los Angeles?

Will Alyson stay in regular school or need to be homeschooled? Can we afford these expenses? Mm-hmm. Which parent will be on set with Alyson, um, around the clock? So. Over the subsequent years, I ended up working on, uh, around 200 films, television shows, um, music videos, commercials, all very embarrassing things that hopefully no one ever sees.

Um, but some of the projects included, yes. Um, camp Rock and Sweet Life, Phineas and Ferb, which is now back for a new season. Mm-hmm. If you have young ones or if you like it yourself, we welcome everyone. Um, and films like the Step Up series, uh, cheaper by the Cheaper by the Dozen, and Dancing with Missy Elliot.

So all of this happened before I could, uh, understand or legally 

consent to any of it. We'll put it that way. 

Preston: So when, when I was reading these first couple chapters, I, I noticed you, I, I see like [00:22:00] you and also like Alyson in the book as a character. I'm like, you kind of realizing that you're the same person, but mm-hmm.

Um. You kind of wanted to make your mom proud? Seemed like the primary driver, like mom could be prouder. If I had gotten more recruiting calls back from this initial IMT convection or mom would be less disappointed in me if I booked more auditions. And then I think, I don't know if I pinpointed this, but at some point between like ages six and nine, it's, there was a transition from I just wanna make mom proud.

I just wanna like diffuse conflict to this is my dream, or I'm taking ownership of it. Do you remember like what it was like for you kind of making that transition from doing things? Kind of to support your family, your family's desires to taking ownership of it. 

Alyson Stoner: Hmm. That's interesting. The concept of ownership, because of course at that age, I'm still gaining my first map of the world.

And whatever is established as, you know, the norm, the norm around me, no matter how healthy or unhealthy [00:23:00] or, you know, relatable or unrelatable, is going to be my concept of normalcy that I'll likely adhere to and reinforce and, you know, until I deeply examine it. Mm-hmm. And write a book called Semi Well Adjusted.

Um, but what's interesting when you say ownership, you know? Mm-hmm. Of course, psychologically. At six years old, you, you haven't even fully formed logic. Mm-hmm. You, you can hardly differentiate between fantasy and reality. And I had no understanding of the short and long term implications on my development and the disruptions that would occur in every aspect of life from education.

Mm-hmm. To finances, to, to family dynamics, to, you know, the public persona and so on. So I think maybe more so what happened, or how, how I understand it so far is that my sense of identity was subsumed in my mm-hmm. Uh, you know, caregivers [00:24:00] identity. And if mom said this is a good thing, and if all of the adults around me said, this is a good thing, then that was all the confirmation I needed to absorb it and reify it.

Um, and what's interesting with, with stardom and the pursuit of fame is that. Society broadly tends to encourage the pursuit of it. It, there's an enchantment with fame. And if you can have proximity to that kind of early success, it kind of, it, it, it smacks of, you know, our obsession with individual exceptionalism and child prodigies and uh, and also this kind of like rags to riches story.

We found you somewhere in Toledo, Ohio and now you're a star. This is good. Good, good. Um, so I don't know that I took ownership with any level of conscious reasoning as much [00:25:00] as this seemed to confirm. This is my ticket to having a purpose and having a sense of worthiness. Mm-hmm. Um, and a direction for my life.

Now what it started though was this really, um. It was such an extreme rat race and the standards were just so beyond what you would see in like, you know, a local community theater program where if you had, you know, a group full of young child actors, uh, in a room together, we would already be worrying about our next career, career milestones and things that most 30 year olds aren't even thinking about.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, I mean, can't wait to get further into it 'cause it's a wild ride. 

Preston: So, so it was really an internalization of others' expectations of you rather than you saying, this is my dream and going with it because there is no way that you could intelligently or, or, or cognitively understand what those.

[00:26:00] Expectations or implications were 

Alyson Stoner: Yes. And I know that for some of my peers it felt very different. Some of my peers, for example, the singer, um, jojo Leveque, uh, she loved singing. She wanted to be a performer, um, to the degree that she understood what that meant. Um, and so she was begging her mom to be in the industry.

And that was a very different conversation than what I had with mm-hmm. My mom. I was actually just trying to be compliant and, you know, follow the rules, follow the recommendations. Don't get into trouble. The adults say dance. So I dance at the adults, they sing, so I sing. Um, and, and, and I didn't even ask myself what I quote unquote wanted until woo, many, many years later, decades later.

Margaret: I say you reflect on that later in the book and kind of say. You almost go searching, I think, in therapy, but also in self-reflection and reconnecting with your father of, [00:27:00] was this in me? Like, was I this driving motor? And maybe also having had peers that did have that, maybe their parents were the ones being like, hold on, hold on.

Right? Like going back in time and trying to figure out amidst this landscape, was I the reason I was there? Like what, what was that? And that confusion of trying to parse apart 6-year-old you and what. They wanted and then what parents wanted and, and how that nav environment was navigated. And this age, so in the Ericsson stages, it's school age is five to 12 and I didn't name them, so I don't like the name of it, but it's industry versus inferiority stage.

Um, I did not name them Shout on Ericsson. But, but I think the point of this is like in this school age, there's this developing sense of expectations on you and accomplishments and kind of creating this locus of control, of beginning parts of identity, but also beginning parts of, I'm going back to the family model and I'm showing them how [00:28:00] I'm doing in school.

I'm going to teachers, I'm going to with like these old, like the adults basically, and saying, is this how I do things? And getting praise at home for trying new things and learning how to do different, be in different scenarios or, uh, and I think what I was thinking when I was reading this book is you are reflections throughout.

Especially in this early period of how, what, exactly what you said, like your internal working model is made by whatever environment you're in. And we know that in trauma, we know that also in this setting, right? No matter what the environment is, our human minds and bodies and brains are super resilient and adaptive to the environment that we're in.

And so going through this stage of kind of, am I doing well enough? Am I, are the people who I care about, proud of me? Um, especially when you talk about it in the settings of maybe the first few movie set or fam like TV families you had, um, how much it became that you were also looking for that, [00:29:00] making sense of yourself as a school age kid, not just in your own family, but also in these quick paced kind of families you would have on set, um, and what you would get from that.

But also the pain of having those end quickly and unpredictably. 

Alyson Stoner: Hmm. Yes. So you, you mentioned a number of things, and I actually wanna fill in maybe the, the gap on some developmental, uh, disruptions before this phase. So, you know, if we're thinking about quote unquote healthy and balanced child development, um, some of the key factors that feel essential are stability.

Um mm-hmm. You know, being able to. Yeah, I guess this is where I'm shifting from artists and I'm putting on my mental health practitioner hat for a moment. So, um, having, having access to an adequate amount of stability in your daily environment, also in your relationships with attachment figures. [00:30:00] Um, I would mention the importance of, uh, consistency and routine.

So, you know, being able to have enough structure, uh, or the ability to rely on EE enough factors in life that you could manage if you, um. Unexpected surprises and a few, uh, challenging moments, still knowing that tomorrow we can return to some semblance of calm. Um, and I would name the importance of course, of attuned, uh, uh, uh, authority figures, um, adults who can really clue in to your experience, provide guidance on navigating these big emotions for the first time.

Um, and I would, you know, I would say in those early ages, conversations around the basics of bodily autonomy and boundaries, where I start and where I end. And, you know, being able to promote a, a play-based childhood where there's creative expression. So I think of all of these elements and to, to paint a quick picture [00:31:00] leading up to, um, the phase that you were talking about.

It might be helpful for people to. Um, here's some specific examples as to what that looked like, uh, for the child performer. So when it comes to stability mm-hmm. I moved 25 times before. 25 years old. Um, and uprooting a family anywhere is already going to, you know, involve some kind of. Transition and, and you know, you have to adapt to it.

Um, but I was also in eight different schools before eighth grade, so bonding with peers could only ever be temporary. Um, and then when it comes to consisting and rou consistency and routine, the industry is the antithesis of this. No two days are alike. It's last minute auditions. We're at the beck and call of agents, uh, and, and companies.

Uh, I'm switching characters and headspace personalities, identities, all of that, um, on the hours sometimes. And then when it [00:32:00] comes to emotionally attuned adults, well. I was commodified as a product, so I wasn't there to have adults listen to me and hear my needs. I was there to serve their mission and help the, the project be successful.

Um, there were, you know, 15 representatives who relied on me to work and therefore make them money, uh, on, on commission. So. A lot of implicit messages absorbed there around like financial responsibility. Um, and then quickly like bodily autonomy and consent. These are not words I had even heard until I was in my early twenties, but I had not only folks on set who had full access to touching me, directing me emotionally as well as fans who would watch the shows and run up and, you know, ask for a photo.

And, and here I am, nine, 10, whatever years old, just going, oh, I, I thought I was supposed to be afraid of strangers. But I guess now I'm [00:33:00] kind of like a, a customer service agent where I need to like, give, give the people what they want. Um, so the creative expression, play-based childhood was more, uh, it was closer to a, a work.

Based childhood. Mm-hmm. Um, so then all of that leading into, um, what you're sharing around the expectations, um, the pressures to accomplish things, to prove yourself, to find yourself. A few, a few memories that that come to mind. Uh. Around this age, my family was also starting to show signs of struggling with how big of a role the entertainment industry had become in our lives.

Mm-hmm. It meant that my, my sisters didn't get time with my mom in the same way. And I, I, I can remember the guilt around that. Um, but career wise. [00:34:00] As I mentioned before, child actors have a very compressed timeline where 18 is our expiration date. So by the time you're 12, you're already trying to think like, how can I secure my place in future Oscar winning films?

Uh, and if I'm on Disney right now and no one is gonna take me seriously, like how do I find that indie role that shows these other colors and capacities and whatever. Um, so there were a lot of pressures around being a role model at the same time as being the, the child themselves, just trying to learn things and, you know, wanting to make mistakes, but having actually a, you know, being surveilled in mm-hmm.

Quite intense ways. So I shared a lot. I'll pause there. What comes up for all of y'all? 

Preston: So I, we traveled a lot [00:35:00] for soccer when I was a kid, and my sisters would like complain that they didn't get enough attention because of that. And so I remember like, we, like, we like talk about your story not being that unique.

Um, but even like me and this, like my sport at 14, I was like, why do I feel like all these like similar parallels where it's like, okay, Preston, like we're traveling all the way to Arizona for your soccer tournament and like Heidi doesn't get to go on her trip because of you. You know, you better, you better like perform like, like I would feel responsible for like, doing well in soccer, like making it worth it for everyone that their vacation got derailed.

And so I think like as I was reading these kind of pressures you had, it just felt like a version of like, my life just multiplied times a million. 

[music]: Mm-hmm. In, in 

Preston: these like un unrealistic and like un um, tenable ways. 

Alyson Stoner: Absolutely. I think the, um, the part that you mentioned around the scale, the degree, um, is important here [00:36:00] because your experience with sport, it it for everyone.

It's a balancing act. You've got kids who have multiple interests or you, you're trying to provide x, y, z exposure to life experiences. Um, and while we do have some, you know, more universal or general overlap, then we have to ask ourselves where does it differ and what are the. Unique needs that you had that I did not have.

Mm-hmm. Because maybe I, I had access to other support systems that you didn't, and vice versa. What are the unique factors of, of my life? And, you know, in my field now I'm thinking and what are the adjustments we need to make in advocating for better protections or mm-hmm. You know, policy reform so that this, we can, we can address where these things are [00:37:00] truly just outta balance.

Um, 

Preston: do you think there's a place for child actors to have balance? I know you discussed some kind of ways that we could improve the industry in our, in your epilogue, but I wonder, like, is, is this always just almost gonna be like a pathologic condition? 

Alyson Stoner: Oh, we, um, as it stands, unfortunately, I am not confident that.

Child performers can experience healthy and normal development. Um, sometimes I refer to this, this research on fame. We mentioned early, uh, the phenomenology of fame and having addictive properties. There's also research that shows the experience of fame can shorten someone's lifespan by 12 to 14 years and increase their, um, chances of dying by suicide by three to four times.

And so this, [00:38:00] you know, when we look at the kind of, um, toddler to train wreck pipeline of child performers, as I I call it, and we see this repeated pattern of, you know, decimated fortunes and psychiatric hospitalizations and, you know, tumultuous relationships, I. I'm not convinced that as the system stands today, we can deliver a healthy experience.

Um, I do think there's room for intervention for improvement, um, but 

Preston: more harm reduction really. 

Alyson Stoner: Well, yes, and I would say we would need to provide the guardians, of course, with some upfront resources, um, and ongoing guidance. And I think you could potentially interact with the industry with very specific limitations.

Mm-hmm. So maybe if the scope is small enough or [00:39:00] infrequent enough, um. I, that's as far as I'll stretch otherwise, I'm like in full support of community theater, non commodification of children. Uh, love that. It's just, it's simply, yeah. I mean, it's, it's based on, on my research and, and lived experience with just observing my peers.

Like y'all, I haven't, I promise you if I see a way for, for this to be done mm-hmm. Successfully, uh, you know, in air quotes, uh, then I'm all for it. But, right. We know how hard it is for adults to sustain ourselves across different industries where, you know, it's based on output and not human wellbeing. Um, so it's, it's tough to, to put a child in that environment.

Margaret: I mean, Preston and I have talked about this 'cause I tend to, I usually write online, which our listeners know, and Preston speaks to camera [00:40:00] and. We went to a conference recently and even interacting with a such a tiny scale of recognition as a 30-year-old, I was like, this is, this is such an odd way to interact with people.

Uh, like it's, it's very flattering and it's like, I want to honor people's time and attention they spend with us here, listeners. Um, and it's, I mean, I'm from the Midwest. I'm from a town literally named normal Illinois, and so I know normal. Oh, do I? Normal. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So I felt an odd, like, not twin ship with you in your life path, but just when you were describing the brief kind of moments in the Midwest, I was like, yeah, I recognize that place.

Like I, not literally, but kind of the, the genre of the place. And I think to your point of can someone experience this, especially like we're always, you know, neuroplasticity is there till the day we die, but especially when you're so being formed by what you expect of the world, um, and what does it mean for.

A hundred thousand [00:41:00] 10 year olds to know you and admire you and want you and want some, want to cannibalize you in some way. I, I don't know how you can be formed in that. I think it would take an extremely, almost maybe genetic abnormality to be like, come out of that more than semi well-adjusted, I guess.

Like, I don't know, a human being that could be put in that, that way. 

Preston: Yeah. And it seemed like you had to form some pretty, um, extreme coping skills to deal with these things. Um, and, and we talked about them in the book, but I kind of wanted to give you a chance to share what, what were some of those, like very prominent, like ways you learned how to deal with this insane environment?

Hmm. 

Alyson Stoner: Well, you know, I wouldn't consider them all to be healthy. Many of them were maladaptive. Yes. By definition. Um, um, and I think one of the tricky parts here is sometimes, you know, as young people and as adults, we're rewarded for, uh, traits and habits that are, you know, [00:42:00] celebrated in society. But maybe if we really were to dig deeper, coming from a place of fear or survival or, you know, yeah.

Trying to, to cope with something that feels like it's too much. So, um. Absolutely fell into the category of overachiever and perfectionism. Um, but I also became quite obsessive, uh, about, uh, food and exercise, which did lead to the development of multiple eating disorders. Um, and that again, was actually kind of upheld by the standards in the industry.

I was mostly encouraged to, um, uphold the, the beauty standards and the physique that, you know, would frankly cause all of my, you know, peers watching to go buy whatever the latest diet and fitness related product was. Of course, I didn't understand the role I was playing at the time. I just felt pressured to adhere to [00:43:00] it.

Um, but I. I would say, you know, the labels that were slapped on me later included generalized anxiety disorder, um, some OCD tendencies, um, all the fun kinds of intrusive thoughts that can come with that. Uh, and I'll pause there too, actually, some of the intrusive thoughts to maybe, you know, the quote unquote average person might.

Be able to be classified as paranoia, um mm-hmm. You know, on sort of unfounded or illogical. Um, and yet in some of my lived experiences, my fears were based on the fact that I actually did have stalkers following me. I did have kidnapping plots set up. Um, I did interact with adults who would hold out sheets of paper, have me sign them, and then go sell them, and sometimes put my [00:44:00] face and body on, on pornographic images and videos.

You know, it was like nothing, anything that sounded absurd was actually in the realm of possibility in the industry. So, um. I would say largely my coping strategy was any form of dissociation and avoidance. You know, I, I, I had lived neck up. I was not able to be embodied. That would've been just so absolutely overwhelming.

There was no time to process these highs and lows. There was no quote unquote safe place to do that. Um, so yeah, I really, I, I shut off my awareness of my body unconsciously, of course. And it stayed that way until my body started screaming at me. And the all too familiar pattern of aches and pains and um, and health issues and the return to the body really, I think is, is one of [00:45:00] the primary through lines of mm-hmm.

Um, not only my life path, but now, you know, my work in the mental health field and what I'm hoping to offer moving forward. 

Margaret: You know, there's, there's a grief in it that the kind of original talents you had of maybe like dance or movement or performing are literally embodied. But I think they're also such empathic things when they're done well and to have that capitalized and taken from you.

And also to, I know there are moments in the book where you talk about like, these are really, there are some, you know, happy moments inter interspersed throughout it all of like, wow, what is this that I'm doing? What is this? You know, being on a tour, all of this stuff. But as you get towards the end of the book, I think, and talking about your life now, which we'll go back to a couple other things, but kind of appreciating the very mundane, normal things that are in your writing, which is, is beautiful on this point.

Especially [00:46:00] the having access to that almost life in Toledo again, even though you're not in Toledo, but being able to appreciate those things. And it seems like you've fought a really. Difficult path to, and I'm sure you have not had a lot of people who at first understood what you were trying to get back to.

Right. I can imagine in Hollywood being like, uh, okay. Normal Illinois, Toledo, I'm trying to get there. Take me there. 

Alyson Stoner: Yeah. I'm trying to get to the muddy grass. Mm-hmm. I know, I felt 

Preston: like I, I saw you fall this hero's journey. I, I, I don't know if you see it this way, but it was like the dissent into Hollywood and, and fighting the demons around there, and then you had to re ascend back out and then find normalcy again.

So almost in a way, like I saw this book as like the, the return to normalcy or like rediscovering the ordinary. And, and it's, it's like you kind of go, you go into this place where, um, I love this quote you had in the book, which was, uh, Hollywood is one of the only places where you can [00:47:00] die from encouragement.

Hmm. And, and I felt like that kind of took a couple edges right there because I think when you said it, it was, um. In the context of auditioning where, oh, you know, you, you look great. Like everyone enjoyed you. And then you don't get a callback, you know, and you go back the next day and then they're like, oh, we loved it.

You know, and they call you back and then now you didn't get the part, or, oh, the, the pilot's gonna go off, and then the pilot doesn't take off. But the other part of like dying from encouragement seemed like encouragement was like this intoxicating drug that you just have to keep trying to sustain yourself off of and eventually kind of die from.

So. Yeah. So use this hero, I guess I don't know how to wrap this statement up neatly. 

Alyson Stoner: Well, it is interesting talking about, um, the amount of praise that can accompany a pursuit in the industry. It is an, uh, often an excessive, you know, very effusive environment where people are just, you know, it's thick and sloppy praise all day long, but it's not accompanied by [00:48:00] necessarily anything of, of depth and substance.

Mm-hmm. Um, and, and, or like, it doesn't guarantee that you're gonna be financially stable or employed or, um, yeah, so it's, I I think there is something about seeing the, the traits of, um, narcissism or narcissistic wounds that we often. Kind of, I think a lot of us when we, from afar, when we see child performers, we get that depiction in the media of this like reckless entitled, quote unquote narcissistic.

Mm-hmm. 

[music]: Mm-hmm. 

Alyson Stoner: Uh, young person. Um, but in reality, if you were in a room full of yes people as a child and you had a bunch of adults who never demonstrated any kind of boundary, who gave you excessive access to material goods, to wealth, [00:49:00] to status power, um, you would not have a blueprint for healthy and normal boundaries.

Um, not, and I'm not trying to blame everyone else besides the child. Of course there's the accountability and, you know, growing up and, and taking responsibility. Um, but I do find it interesting that there's this, this thread of, of. Excessive access, um, to things as the, the child performer, but mm-hmm.

Simultaneously the excessive access from the general public mm-hmm. Uh, it into your life that I don't know how, if, if that made any sense the way I just put it, but 

Yeah. 

You know, we get to maybe get into rooms that many people don't get into, but also the entire world gets to know everything about us.

So like, wow. Blurred lines. And That's a weird, and, and, sorry, speak, tying it back to the addiction of fame. Mm-hmm. Think about then, if that child [00:50:00] then falls out of good graces or stops booking things, they go through puberty, they don't look as cute anymore according to the standard. And now not only are they, you know, worried about it from a self-esteem standpoint, but their actual entire worldview will be shaken to the core when they realize.

Oh, I'm just one of several billions of humans doing this thing called being alive. So, yeah, it's a, it's a weird, a weird journey for sure. 

Preston: I don't see how you couldn't develop narcissistic organization if you're in that environment. Like ultimately it, it is a way to protect this, um, fragile ego. And if, if you are kind of waddling, knowing that you could be cast aside like a commodity, which you're describing, I, I, I think I would, I would probably develop some grandiose narcissism and that'd be the only way I could survive.

Alyson Stoner: Right? It's such an interesting interplay of being cut down and, you know, criticized constantly, but then also [00:51:00] being beefed up and, and propped up on a pedestal. Um, 

Preston: you have to think you're better than other people. 

Alyson Stoner: Oh, well that's actually, I, I love the point that you're making here, because that was actually something I struggled deeply with in the industry.

The moment that I started making music and my team said, okay, now you have to embody the persona of a diva, and you have to, you have to convince people to open their wallets and spend money on you as a fan, I cor cringed. I was like, this is all based on an illusion. This is, we, we all know this is an illusion, right?

Yeah. And, and I didn't want fans, I wanted community. I wanted, mm-hmm. I wanted to see eye to eye with people. I wanted real connection and. That's absolutely not the pathway to quote unquote stardom. So, you know, I was, I was a bad star from the, from the get go. Uh, it was [00:52:00] inevitable. And I'm actually grateful 

now that I finally let myself just like walk away.

Uh, but you know, I really thought for a while that was the only 

path I was supposed to be on. Ooh, no, thank you. It's almost like it's in, 

Margaret: I think it's important maybe that there's this part of you that was like a bad star that went through this and, and had this, you know, cohort that you, we witnessed out from the outside as kids.

And now that part of you that was maybe there from the start that made it be like, okay, maybe I shouldn't stay in this forever, is the part that can help you look at it without falling in love with it and say, how do we help change this so that the people who are maybe more actively intoxicated with this industry, you can maybe ask questions because you're not as in love with it.

Um, but you're also not totally, totally outside of it, right? Like. We can't, we can't look at it and be like, yeah, it sounds bad. Like, we don't know. We've never been in it, I've never been in it. Preston, I don't know if you were like a Gerber baby at some point, but 

Preston: I, [00:53:00] I don't think it was chance. I, I feel like, um, in psych, a lot of people that like start out in other specialties and then find their way into to mental health had this like, voice that was like, what?

But to what end? Like, what am I doing for the good here? Mm-hmm. And I don't know, it's, it's funny that you say you're a bad star and it's, I think it's because you had this other like moral part of you that was pulling, pulling yourself away. I that hopefully on this. Yeah. Yeah. Fingers crossed. But I think like that was always probably what was gonna pull you into mental health.

Alyson Stoner: Yeah, I think it's the, the need for integrity and just when that felt like it was constantly compromised. Um, but that the adults around me were all in on that. They were all in on, you know, reifying, this falsity. I was like, this just something's not lining up. And if that's what it takes for me to succeed here, I'm simply not, I'm not the person to do this.

Um, but you know, I [00:54:00] think combining what, what you were saying, both of you were saying, I think I desire to belong as any and all of us do. Um. But you know, the first go around in that desire to belong, I said, then what does it take for me to fit in? And then revisiting it as an adult with, you know, fresh perspective.

I desired to belong. Sure. But now I'm saying I'm seeing, oh, okay. That's not because I actually needed to fit in. That's because I was just, I had a core need and this was what was around mm-hmm. As the option to, you know, attempt to meet it. And so that sense of belonging, um. In truth for me absolutely happens in like a research lab, uh, with a bunch of people talking about whatever latest article just came out, uh, like bone dry research.

That's where I'm at. Mm-hmm. [00:55:00] I have no interest in watching movies or being on a movie set unless I am the mental health coordinator, which I now mm-hmm. Thankfully am so, yeah. So cool. It's just, yeah. Different 

Margaret: positionality. I mean, when you're being admired, you like can't be loved at the same time because.

There is a a difference in position. Like there you have to be the same. And in the research lab, it's even if there's like a leader, and certainly research is not free of this, but that, it's like we're doing something together and there's not a hi. There's not as much of a hierarchy or an observing part of it.

It's like we're all, I mean, for my own research meeting, like I'm in look in like who did it and why and like mm-hmm. But it feels like you're doing something together, which it sounds like from your experience in Hollywood sometimes it would feel that way, but the sense of competition and the ephemerality of the work and staying power was always kind of knocking really loudly at the back door.

Alyson Stoner: Right. And I think that feels industry agnostic. It feels more like a [00:56:00] reflection of, you know, capitalism, individualism, all the isms. We got lots of them that we can look at. In fact, I, I'll, I'll wait and withhold, but I do have a conversation for both of, or a question for both of you that if there's time for, I'd love to ask.

[music]: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Margaret: Yeah. Okay. We're gonna take a quick break 'cause otherwise Rob's gonna be mad at us. Love you, Rob, our producer. Uh, and we'll be right back,

Preston: please. Uh, Alyson, the floor's, yours, what's, what's the question? 

Alyson Stoner: Well, this might be spicy, you might wanna cut all of this out of the interview. Okay. But I do wonder how you all approach the reality of the, the mental health industrial complex. Mm-hmm. And when I use that term, I'm referring to the systems and institutions and industries that profit from, you know, the diagnosis and treatment and management of mental health conditions, but in ways that often [00:57:00] prioritize profit or social control or institutional power, uh, over, you know, actual healing justice, root cause solutions.

I'm curious in your work where, where you feel located in this conversation, um, is this something that you, you know, actively resist or something that you try to just be mindful of? Or how, what do you do with all of this information? Because people need tools, they need support. It's, it's. It's super important that we do this work, but of course, like these other isms overlaying, uh, have a lot of Yeah, a lot of spice to them thoughts.

Preston: Um, so it immediately makes me think of that. I think it was an inpatient hospital in Michigan that was for profit and they were, um, kind of immorally mislabeling people's charts and keeping them in the hospital longer so they could bill their insurance for longer [00:58:00] periods of time. And these are patients that were being held under order of protective custody or, um, against their will, emergency detention, whatever kind of rules there were there.

And I, I'm like very aware of that. I'm very aware of the, the kinda the antip psychiatry things and a lot of people kind of, um, comment that. 

[music]: Um, 

Preston: on our pages that, you know, we, we sedate people for profit or that we're, we're kind of doing these things to, to propagate mental illness. We have to force people to come back for treatment and things like that.

Um, I, as far as resisting it go, I think about how I, in a lot of ways I'm frustrated and powerless as I live in a system that I am aware does harm to people. Like, um, I know that research shows that if I'm, if I'm gonna involuntarily commit someone into a psychiatric hospital, their chances of voluntarily seeking care for the rest of their life is substantially decreased.

So if I, if I'm worried that they're suicidal now [00:59:00] I am, I'm hurting their chance of ever seeking out a therapist ever again. So, so I'm aware that like there's potential to do both damage and harm reduction here. Whenever I am like stuck in this scenario where either I have an attending telling me to, to.

Go a certain way or a hospital policy, I just try to say like, like, what does this person actually need in front of me? Like, how can I actually help them? So a good example I had the other day was this, this patient who was, they were labeled with, um, a psychotic illness and, and I thought they had this illness, but when I asked them about it, they said, oh, you know what?

I don't believe in any of that stuff, but I just take the medicine because it, it gives me disability. And I was like. Alright. You know, like, like I think you're hallucinating and I think you're responding to an internal stimuli, but if that's the kind of the charade we're working with, I'm like, I know this person's unhoused and I know if I just try to like go along with it, like, the best thing for your mental health and your safety is that you get this [01:00:00] disability check and it gives you some form stability.

So if that means I can like pull these levers within the system to ensure that that is in place, I'm not gonna pin you down and like have a nurse inject antipsychotic into your arm because I need to treat your psychosis right now I, I'm aware that that's not being treated, but like how I can actually help you is just to like get you food and like some something tomorrow.

So, so I guess that's how I end up like jockeying a lot of these situations and I'm like, well, you know, this is what big hospital would want me to do, but Preston thinks this is the way to help the person in front of me. Does that kind of like answer your question? 

Alyson Stoner: Yeah, absolutely. 'cause it is such a complicated, uh, reality for any and all of us who are wanting to support humans.

But you know, you're playing within the confines of systems and Wow, like so many legal, um, parameters as well. Even if the human in front of you says, no, no, no, this would be helpful. And you're like, I le I legally [01:01:00] cannot provide you with this, but I can give you this other menu of options. Um, but Margaret, I don't know if you had something you 

Margaret: wanted to add.

I'm gonna give you a spicy answer back since you, you were brave enough to answer to ask this question. I will say the part of the internet that I'm on, in addition to the work I do, so I'm in perinatal and then child psychiatry, which is, um, under, I don't like the word attack, but is under, uh. Fire under fire.

Yeah. With the current kind of thinking on and that like children are overprescribed medications and therefore if you talk about children, then you're, if we ever put limitations on that, then it's also going to impact, um, pregnant women or postpartum women who are breastfeeding. Because if we limit, say like, children can't have this, da, da, da, I don't think we're there yet in terms of the world, but I also think things have happened in the last six months that I did not expect.

Um, so I say all of that to say I think there is a lot in the kind of wellness pipeline that [01:02:00] agrees and can kind of take this valid critique. Psychiatry has got a, oh. History, uh, that we won't talk about right now. That is right. Right, right. We, I, I think it's very important that all psychiatrists are aware of the history of how we got here and all the ills our field has done.

And I think we have a lot of examples in the last 50 years in the US of not thinking through questioning the mental health system, it getting defunded and then seeing the consequences later if we're talking about like deinstitutionalization, which on the outset sounded great in like the seventies, and then that funding went nowhere for the mental health.

Um, and I guess the, the only other part I'll say is when we question these systems, which we should all the time, um, I also have an ethics background so that that's where some is coming out. But, um, love this. We should question the systems, but we should also ask if, if we're thinking about the most vulnerable in our populations, where does this, where do these questions lead?

And so. [01:03:00] We, while I think there's been a lot of destigmatization of affective or mood disorders, to some extent, the severely mentally ill are still very, very stigmatized against and not fully supported. And so when we say the like mental health industrial complex, what I worry about is less like, I mean my patients know that.

They know I'm gonna push them and be like, anxiety's a feeling all of us feel and how can we be warm and kind and self-compassion support, right? But I worry that when we push back in that way, in the current vein of it, in terms of like psychiatry and mental health, I've heard takes online that are like doctors prescribe SSRIs because they want you to be dependent on them and they want you to need a subscription model.

And the actual last thing I'll say is the ethical decision that happens in clinic more often than not, this happens a lot in my like perinatal clinic. Someone's in a situation where. They don't have enough resources. They are in Massachusetts and they still [01:04:00] can't get a therapist. They have a significant trauma history and they already have two kids and maybe their relationship's also not great or like this emotionally safest.

All of those things are probably the reason they're feeling mildly to moderately anxious or depressed. And it makes sense in the setting they're in. And I say this to 'em, but then it becomes this question of do I think an SSRI could still help them in their situation and settings. So all of that is probably is a hundred things, but I say that to say I worry the direction of the conversation.

That is not hear us talking about it, but is happening more broadly because it's laced with a lot of fear and conspiracy. And most psychiatrists I know who are in training now at the very least also are like, this part of the system sucks and I wish that I didn't have to do this. Like I hate restraining people.

I hate sectioning or sectioning is what's called here. Um, so I just worry where the money will go. As we publicly question this for the people who are the sickest. [01:05:00] 

Alyson Stoner: That's a great point. And yeah, the need for 

nuance is not necessarily our current landscape's strength. 

[music]: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Alyson Stoner: So yeah, it can be quite divisive and can be quite binary and just like, well, let's flip this switch on or completely off.

Um, what do you think though? Like, what do you think? Yeah, 

Preston: so what is your, kind of like, niche in the mental health field and I guess like how do you fit into the industrial complex, so to 

Alyson Stoner: speak? Yes. Yeah. Where, where are you located? Don't just call us out. Are you on the 

Preston: factory floor? 

Margaret: Yeah. Which part of the 

Alyson Stoner: right?

Yeah. I, I went from one assembly line to the next, um, I would say, so my training started in trauma-informed somatic movement facilitation, which I know I already just lost a handful of people who are like completely anti somatics as a legitimate field. Um, but, uh, from there, it. It, um, the direction [01:06:00] was, uh, interpersonal neurobiology, um, uh, of course like lots of different kind of psych first aid, mental health, first aid, suicide prevention.

Um, and, and then I was quite interested in understanding racialized trauma, um, how trauma shows up in different bodies, um, according to different lived experiences, uh, how it's, you know, um, intergenerational and, and, and of course not just, you know, an individual's plight to, to navigate alone. Um, so, uh, I think.

As I continue training Oh, and yes, now, uh, mental health coordination for productions and sets. So working with, uh, young performers, uh, actually performers of all ages, um, as well as working, um, with the production teams on what it means to ethically portray, uh, depictions of, uh, mental health conditions.

Um, which I, I love that aspect because we get to observe, you know, what are the harmful stereotypes of living [01:07:00] with schizophrenia, and how can we make sure that we start to reduce the number of, you know, those appearances across media and, and make sure that, you know, how many times has the trope been that like the person who is mentally ill is the perpetrator of harm when we know statistically oftentimes they're the victim of crime and not the perpetrator and all the things I'm, I feel like I'm probably preaching to the choir.

So, um, so it. In, in all of my training thus far, what I've also come across is the need for decentering, solely Western biomedical frameworks as the, you know, be all and also solution. Um, and also making sure that I. Aware of the Carceral logic, uh, that can accompany some of our approaches to intervention.

Um, obviously pathologizing individuals instead of addressing the [01:08:00] system can be a part of it. And, you know, from a more intersectional approach, making sure that I'm recognizing when we're pathologizing legitimate trauma responses to oppression, to discrimination. Um, so I, I'm feeling the, the call continually to, um, to, um, fortify my initial training and education with more global understandings of healing, wellbeing, human flourishing, um, making sure I'm, I am constantly, uh, fueling myself with a very diverse range of expertise.

Um, and yeah, I tend to be. Modality agnostic, not as a, a practitioner and facilitator, but as, as a participant. Um, I tend to, to see, uh, a lot of opportunity and making sure I [01:09:00] don't stay in one classroom 

mm-hmm. 

Forever more. Um, and that I, I make sure I go and sit in, uh, a lot of different classrooms and that I don't drink any CLA one classroom's.

Kool-Aid too much. You want a flight of the Kool-Aid. 

Preston: You don't wanna become the hammer that can only see a nail everywhere it goes. 

Alyson Stoner: Yeah. Yeah. So, um. I don't know if that helps answer, but I absolutely think you know it. Yeah. We've gotta ask ethical questions, we've gotta ask systemic questions, we've gotta talk policy.

We've, it's all interdisciplinary and, and I think constantly building connections and, and within your network, uh, of people who work at different intersections is, is vital 'cause Yeah. I can only see the part of the elephant, um, that I can see. And you might be looking at the tusk and I'm looking at the back leg and I'm like, no, no, no, this is the problem.

And you're like, actually not at all. This is the problem. So, 

Margaret: well, there's something, [01:10:00] you know, I think there's something humbling and really beautiful about we lose this in the modern media landscape and the current. Kind of discourse around believing science, but science done well, like any creative thing done well is a community of knowing and is a, we all must have each other taking steps forward together to actually get anywhere.

That'll help. And that involves, right, like in healthcare, it involves also community integration, not just in the theory and science we're doing, but also in like, how does this actually land with people? Like, does this doesn't matter. You could have the best medication ever, but if no one will take it because you made it like a color that is like, why is that pill blue?

Then it doesn't matter that you have the best science blue pill. What? 

Preston: No. I literally had a patient the other day that was like, I don't do yellow. 

Margaret: Yeah. I've, I've had patients are like, I don't like, the shape of that is weird. I'm like, okay. I'm 

Preston: like, I'm like, darn it. You know? Switching to Thors. That one's red.

Um, um, 

Margaret: ire I'm realizing our time-wise, we kind [01:11:00] of went off script. We hope you're okay with that. Sorry. No, no, that's good. Well, I 

Preston: think we stayed on, on script in a way we That's true. That's true. Sorry, I, I, I have one more question, and this may be like trite and anti spicy, but, um, I see you kind of wrestling with all of these often, like Yes.

And situations where you have legitimate trauma responses and also, um, personal culpability for things that result in carceral systems. And, and I guess a lot of how we view the Phil philosophy of mental health kinda comes down to how we view the philosophy of the soul. And I, I'm curious, do you think that people are free?

Margaret: This might be true. No. God, do you my 

Preston: Do you believe? Yeah. Do you believe people are free? 

Margaret: The thing is, we, audience is gonna be like, this is right. This is the podcast. 

Alyson Stoner: Are we actually gonna try and end the conversation with that question, because this is starting a whole new conversation around determinism and Yeah, [01:12:00] man, I found my crowd, it took me 30 plus years, but we're here.

Thanks for having me believe in this. 

Margaret: Yeah. Next time 

Alyson Stoner: I, so I take this with a grain of salt. I, at the moment because my, my orientation to, to this question has shifted. Mm-hmm. So it's certainly going to shift again, um, or maybe at least transcend, include, expand, whatever. But I, I think where I'm standing at the moment is that between all of the, um.

Mixed variables that inform us internally. Externally. Um, I would say we probably have quite a, a narrow window of quote unquote free will. However, we would mm-hmm. Define that. Um, uh, but I, but I, at the moment, I am, I don't think I'm [01:13:00] willing to collapse it all into nothing. Uh, because I think, I think, um, I.

Hmm. Now. 'cause now I'm thinking about phenomenology and the phenomenological shifts that I've experienced when my paradigm of the world was inside a church versus when it was deconstructed. And now it's, it's, um, in the world in a, in a new way. Uh, and I legitimately, uh, my subjective perception of what was happening around me was so markedly different than how I would, uh, talk about it now.

Um, and, and yeah, qualify it, but I. I have to believe that had I had, I had no free will, I would probably just keep doing more of the same thing. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, it took a pretty deliberate number of decisions to catalyze that degree of a [01:14:00] shift. So yeah, I, but I'd, I'd say we still play within just so many layers of programming and deterministic variables in my understanding.

But I would love to hear your view on this. 

Preston: It's like somewhere under there, there's a pilot amidst of the maybe. Yeah. I think, I think that's like the only right answer you can give it just, I don't know. And, and you hope one way or another. I, I think I used to be pretty, um, starkly determinist. And I would, I would kind of scoff at people that would presume there to be some ectoplasm underneath all of our neurons.

You talk about 

Margaret: This is so you 

Preston: Yeah, but no, like, like I know that like every single one of my neurons is abiding by the clauses inequality that's following the rules of physics. And like, I can't fathom a way in which like these things aren't following a deterministic pattern, I guess. Hmm. So, so even if I make these really [01:15:00] tough life choices, if put, if reconstructing my biology perfectly and putting through the exact same circumstances, the machine would put out the same output.

And so it kind of becomes, then I almost like step away from the, the biologic aspect of it and say like, well does that even matter? Because I'm along for the ride anyways. If, if I know I go into an ice cream shop and I was always gonna get cookie dough ice cream every time, it doesn't matter that the universe knows that I'm gonna do that.

I still have to feel like I'm choosing in the moment. So. Is me feeling like conscious, am I like reflecting, like, what's happening? Neurobiologically. So, so in a way I'm like, I am me being pressed in as like the emergent property of my brain and the one that's guiding this not, and I'm not just like the victim of it or, or a subordinate to it.

So I think that's kind of where I'm stuck, where it's like, I don't know if free will exists, but also I'm like, it, it almost doesn't matter because I have to make that [01:16:00] decision and I'm still therefore responsible for that decision. Mm-hmm. I, I think sometimes the implication of the free will argument is if there's no free will, then people are purely victims of their experience and then there should be no need for punishment really.

And, and it kind of changes. It, it, it really undermines the framework of a lot of society in general, I think. But I, I have marrying those two things I guess. 

Alyson Stoner: I have so many thoughts, but Margaret, if you wanna, I don't wanna stop you from getting a chance to weigh in. 

Margaret: Um, I was a theology major in college, so stop.

I have a different background. Yeah. We 

Alyson Stoner: need another conversation. You need another, 

Margaret: um, I'm also someone who's more into like poetry theology as a background approach to psychiatry. Um, I agree with Preston's lens of it to an extent. Um, I would never say it that way. I think I, I kind of agree with your stance of, [01:17:00] I think we have a, like I, Cheryl Strait who wrote Wild but also wrote the advice column, tiny beautiful things is like the book collection.

Um, I don't like this cliche, but you are given, we're all given different hands of cards and our responsibility is to play them. It's gonna be a very different game if you are directly dealt like. A full hand and I'm dealt like absolutely nothing. Uh, joke, hand and eure. We're doing EU in the Midwest if I'm dealt a farmer's hand.

Preston: Yeah. Yeehaw. 

Margaret: Um, and, but I think that that space for free will and for creativity and the kind of miracle that people make of their lives, whatever those are, that that exists for each of us. And that my job as a therapist is helping people see what they can't control and the beauty of what they can, and also have validation and empathy for the injustices that limit their, the cards they were dealt.

Alyson Stoner: [01:18:00] Man, I know we have to honor time here. 

Time 

is made up, first of all, also just a few. I know. I'm like a few quick thoughts. Um, it just, when y'all were talking, I was starting to think about consciousness studies and consciousness being an emergent, um, process. I don't know if you're familiar with like four e cognition, uh, is, I dunno if this is the crowd.

Um, might be a different crowd. It's okay. It's okay. Put it away. Um, but, uh. But I think there's something beautiful about trying to, here I am doing the thing, Preston, I'm combining. It's the both and it's the yes and of it all. It's what you, 

Preston: it's what you have to do. There's no way around it. Yeah. 

Alyson Stoner: But it seems like, you know, we have to at some point recognize that what we have, um, you know, if consciousness, let's say is this kind of, oh God, we, we don't have time for this.

Is it immaterial? Is it material? Uh uh Okay. The oversimplified statement here of the [01:19:00] century, consciousness being some kind of thought that then gets expressed into form. And that form becomes, you know, constructs that a actually uphold society and have material impact on lives. Um, if there's any level of realness in that, then.

I, I have to also leave room for the fact that we might be able to play with consciousness in different ways where the collective agreements we're currently using to, to, to speak about determinism and, and, mm-hmm. How things work. They, there might be more room to actually have a different plane of consciousness, a different take, a different, uh, you know, awareness of, of all of this.

So I think I'm gonna kind of retract a little bit of what I said, or, or stick with it to a degree and then say, but actually I'm, I'm only ever speaking through one point of consciousness in this current moment. And the second that I elevate that, transcend it, whatever, however you wanna call it, [01:20:00] there might be like a different vantage point from the upper room, um, who would weigh in very differently on the matter.

Matter is a funny punny word to use. Yeah, that was, that was 

Preston: great. 

Margaret: One of my, I'm gonna interrupt Preston, too bad. Sorry. But you did tell me to interrupt you more, Preston. That was your feedback to me for season one. That was, 

Preston: that was a YouTube comment. 

Margaret: Uh, I, to stop laughing also, uh, one of the things that I like, you do a bajillion interviews for you, audition for residency and fellowship.

Uh, and one of the things that people ask, like they ask about your background and so they'll be like, theology, what did you learn? What does that do with psychiatry? And I always say that there's a quote from this professor I had who was obsessed and taught a class in the Chronicles of Narnia and CS Lewis's theology, obviously, obviously.

But he would say. The minute you think you like, have it figured out. Like the minute you think you have it in the box, you are the furs furthest from having it in the box. So if you can just get more comfortable with it. With the cloud of Unknowing was like the book we were reading at the time. 

Alyson Stoner: Yes. The Cloud of [01:21:00] Unknowing.

Yeah, that's on my shelf. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is more Buddhist? No, that's not, um, this is like the old, this is or is this like Christian mysticism? It is Christian mysticism. Okay, okay. Yeah, 

Margaret: we're in the lore. The audience, I like drop one tiny thing about my back. Kristen's like, what the hell is that?

I, I heard is 

Preston: Narnia, 

Margaret: but the like, the not knowing and the like being, I think that's so core to psychiatry or mental health or this, you know, this large power we're talking about. But the work you're doing of, how can I get really good at walking a circle over and over around this like. Cloud or, you know, being that I'm never gonna really get all the way in, like, I'm never gonna stop walking, I'm gonna die not knowing.

Um, and I, I do think that there is something of that in the current, at least the current science of mental health that like, can you want to pursue this over and over again and not know more, but never know all and probably be wrong when you know more. Mm-hmm. 

Alyson Stoner: I love that. I feel like we're drawing to a natural close, so I'm not even gonna try to [01:22:00] add more to that other than, um, I do think that that's, uh, an invitation we could all, uh, benefit from.

Taking at the moment, which is what are all the ideas that currently shape our perspective? Um, what are, you know, the ways that we are indoctrinated, um, that we get to really reflect on and, and leave room for adjusting. Um, maybe we'll only ever be semi well adjusted, but, got it. 

But, uh, maybe, maybe that's all right and we can do it together pre-order now.

I'm just kidding. 

Preston: Yeah. I, I think all we can do is find a way to clear away the rubble. 

[music]: Mm-hmm. 

Preston: Find, find what's, what's wrong, and remove it. And then hopefully that slowly pushes us towards, um, what might be good. 

Margaret: Mm yes. Yes, yes, yes. So if you read the book, you will know if there is free will or not. That's right.

That's premise. And you also discover 

Preston: what the greatest good is in the world. Justice is at the end, but you have to read it to find it [01:23:00] 

Margaret: until 

Alyson Stoner: the very last 

Margaret: page. 

Alyson Stoner: Yeah. When 

Margaret: I, I, when will this book be out? 

Alyson Stoner: The book is out August 12th, and my life may or may not be forever changed. 

Margaret: I don't know in what ways yet writing.

[music]: Mm-hmm. 

Margaret: Well, I mean, I'm sure your, your life has changed by even writing it and going through the process of becoming by getting it on paper. And it is, we both really enjoy the book where you're texting both throughout reading and we're like, this, this, oh, look at this part. What should we ask about this?

So we both, I'm gonna speak for you, Preston. Uh, really, really honestly enjoyed it a lot. 

Alyson Stoner: Awesome. Thank you. Did you see all the kind of like mental health innuendo? Mm-hmm. I was like, how do I tuck in this thing that's related to development? Yes. Well, feeling like it's just a 

Preston: you, these conversation with 

Alyson Stoner: friends.

Mm-hmm. 

Preston: You drop these maladaptive core beliefs like little Easter eggs. Yeah. And, uh, we picked them up and, and I think other people 

Alyson Stoner: will too. 

Margaret: Love 

Alyson Stoner: that. I'm so [01:24:00] thrilled. I'm so glad that I have the chance to speak with you all because 

you know, when you're. Promoting a book or talking about a project, uh, you wanna meet the person where they are.

And a lot of people are entering this conversation through being obsessed with pop culture. Um, and so it's not every day that I get to have a conversation with people who may be obsessed with pop culture, but also are informed by, you know, so many other, uh, fields of thought. So thank you. Kudos. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Mm-hmm. For being 

Margaret: who you are. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on our show. Where can people find you besides in your book? Where can they find you on the internet? 

Alyson Stoner: Yes. 

Uh, you can or other places find me? Yes, at Alyson Stoner, uh, just my name. It's pretty simple. That's across all platforms.

Instagram, uh, TikTok for as long as that'll be around, we don't know. Um, and then, yeah, YouTube, you can search my name, but also my website will have, you know, simple bio [01:25:00] if you're like, okay, who was I just listening to for an hour? Um, and that's just Alyson stoner.com. So leave a note, let me know what you think of the book.

Super curious to hear your thoughts.

Margaret: Well, we saw Free Will in that Exer episode, so I hope you 

guys 

enjoyed it. Yeah, 

Preston: I was like, I was like, Margaret's gonna kill me when I asked this 

Margaret: question. I actually liked it this time. That's our growth. But it's, it's now it's endearing to me. Preston, 

Preston: look at us. You know, look at us. Well, I, I just like, this was a, a really new episode for us.

I don't think we, like Alyson was a, a big guest. 

Margaret: Yeah. 

Preston: I think I, I spent a lot of this week being like, wow, we have a real celebrity. And, and not, not that anyone else is a fake celebrity, but it's just, I think, um, it's something that I, that anyone who kind of works at Entertainment aspires to, um, meet people who, who have experienced these things and, and have had these, um, really unique and, and.

Powerful perspectives on the world. Yeah, [01:26:00] 

Margaret: I mean it's something neither you nor I can imagine. And as we talked about in the episode, I don't know, I think their story is super unique and you know, one in a million in a way. But also this question of a surveilling and like childhood where people are taking pictures and putting them on social media or trying or you know, as we talked about offline, like how many kids wanna grow up and be YouTubers or influencers.

I think it's a broader conversation, not just about Hollywood over here, but about how fame and showing up as yourself versus a representative of yourself matters as a kid and now as adults. Yeah. 

Preston: So if this was the type of show that you like and you want us to bring on more guests, please let us know.

Um, we're go happy to, to search far and wide and, and find people to have, uh, both like fun and deep conversations, although things are mutually exclusive. I, I think I'm liking to see how the, the shape of season two is. And, and we hope you are too. If you want to come chat with us, you can always find us at the [01:27:00] Human Content Podcast, family, Instagram and TikTok at Human Content Pods.

You can contact the, the team directly at how to be patient pod.com. You can always find me on it's prera, on YouTube, Instagram and TikTok, and then Margaret's at Bad Art every day on TikTok and Instagram. You don't have YouTube, do you? 

Margaret: No. I have a Substack though for the girls like to read 

Preston: behind the paywall.

Maybe 

Margaret: it's not. Half of them are free. 

Preston: If you, um, if you leave a comment or any kind of feedback or a review or, yeah, we do serial, um, inter, um, what do, what do you call 'em? Surveys. And we will send you a clip if you're winner from one of our surveys. We just sent one of those out and it was pretty good.

Margaret: Sorry, Iris Greenspan. 

Preston: Yeah. I dunno that, that, I bet you if you're listening again, this is, we're double dipping here. We're your hosts, Preston Ro and Margaret Duncan. Our executive producers are me, Preston, Roche, Margaret Duncan, will Flannery, Kristin Flannery, Aaron Corny, Rob Goldman, and Shahnti Brooke.

Our editor and engineer is Jason Portizo. Our [01:28:00] music is Bio Beds V. To learn more about our program, disclaimer and ethics policy, submission verification, licensing terms, and our HIPAA release terms, go to our website, how to Be Patient po.com or reach out to us at How to Be Patient Human content.com with any questions or concerns.

How to be patient is a human content production.

Thank you for watching. If you wanna see more of us or if you wanna see, this is lilac. She's my cat. She's gonna be waving her hand at one of the floating boxes, which will lead to more episodes. Lilac Point to the other episodes. Lilac doesn't know what the internet is, but I swear they're there. They, they probably exist for real.

But in the meantime, I'm just gonna pet lilac and then I'm gonna go dance in the [01:29:00] background.